Help me with this homebrew cosmolgy

[Turanil]

I am back to work on my Sword & Sorcery setting. I went for allowing the base vanilla races however, as they are a staple of fantasy that players usually like, and are featured in many games (D&D, C&C, True20, HARP, and even Savage World). I also like the concepts of Chaos (ala Moorcock), of demonic beings, etc., and want to include them. And I've read some ideas here on ENworld that I would like to re-use; one of them is as follows:

-- Cosmology/Planes is not the Great Wheel. Instead reality is made up of layers like that of an onion. In the innermost layer, there is no energy, no movement, nothing, and thus no magic at all; there, were imprisoned evil gods in the dawn of times. The outermost layer is full radiant energy, the world of the gods (of "good"), the Heavens; magic is everything in this ultimate layer. Now the elves come from a layer above that of humans (the campaign setting plane), wich accounts for their affinity with magic. Dwarves come from a layer below that of human plane, which accounts for their resistance to magic. Elves fell from grace for whatever reason; dwarves I don't know. Maybe worthy dwarves went to the plane above for hunting escaped demons?

I much like this idea, but don't know much how to use it, as I also like the idea of Chaos magic and demons (ala Moorcock), which doesn't fit much this above idea. I mean, in my idea, slumbering demons are imprisoned into the lower world, where they can do nothing but slumber. However, being powerful enough, they can, if helped from above, that is if summoned, project themselves astrally/avatar in the world of mortals. There they are able to perform magic, as the layer let them do so, where its impossible in their prison. Would they go a further layer above, they would be even more powerful magically, but physically weaker (avatar is farther away from their "body").

Finally, I would like to implement this:

-- When the elves fallen from grace came to the human plane, they were still wise spirit-folk with a strong link with universe/nature/spirituality/etc. But some of them fell from grace further, and became dark elves; a race like drow or Melniboneans. They discovered the imprisoned demons and unleashed them in their quest for power. So now we have a Melnibonean-like elven people who command to demonic magic and summoning. This is this magic that brought abberation and undead to the world by the way.

Where it comes to dwarves, I have no real idea, nor an abslute necessity to make them come from a layer below.


So what are your ideas/suggestions to improve, modify, add stuff, whatever, to this cosmology?

 

[GuardianLurker]

If you make the planes overlapping, with weak barriers, someone could walk through all the planes - elves become mountain people, dwarves the underground miners (who may have inadvertently delved too deep once or twice).

 

[Nellisir]

Mechanically, D&D has certain assumptions built in, including extraplanar spaces, the Ethereal Plane, the Astral Plane, and the existence of elemental creatures (less so the Elemental planes themselves). So you should figure out how the Ethereal and Astral function.

My suggestions:
1 - If you haven't read the Wizard-Knight by Gene Wolfe, read it. Now. It describes almost exactly the sort of cosmology you have laid out, and it's awesome to read.

2 - Make it easier to go down than up. Spells cast to move deeper into the layers are at least one spell level less than the same spell cast to go up. This has a few repercussions, not the least of which is a very real chance of getting stranded if you drop to a layer and can't cast a high enough spell to get back out of. Alternately, or additionally, a spell's level depends on how many layers you want to skip. Using a spell to skip 3 layers adds +3 to its level.

3 - Tying in with #2...if you're going to the trouble of making this stuff up, make it matter. Don't make the characters wait until 16th level (unless you're running a 16th level game now) to access the planes. Drop all the plane-jumping spells down a few levels, or create new spells at lower levels.

4 - Each layer can have its own Ethereal, so everything ethereal works and functions unchanged. The Astral might be a shortcut to all layers(with access to the Astral restricted to high level characters) or it could be a gathering ground easily accessible from any layer, but exit via any layer but your own (possibly requiring a saving throw of increasing difficulty depending on how far away from your home layer your destination layer is). I really like this second idea, actually. What an incredible place the Astral would be!!

5 - Dwarves could have migrated upwards to gain access to stronger magics, or they could be a form of corruption moving upwards - in Norse mythology Snorri describes dwarves as originating from maggots in the body of Ymir. Dwarves native to the lower layers (not PH dwarves) could have spell resistance and/or increasing hardiness - variant duergar.

6 - In that vein, I'd take away the spell-like abilities of the drow, or change them - give them chill touch, or touch of fatigue, ray of enfeeblement as a touch attack instead of a ray.

7 - If you wanted to get geometrically funky, elements and ethos could work perpendicular to the layers -- in other words, elementals appear on all layers, and all layers have chaos/evil/law/good. Higher layers would manifest elementals with greater intelligence and spell like abilities, while lower layer elementals would be stronger and have magic resistance -- maybe becoming golem-like.

8 - I don't see any inherent contradiction with Melnibonean-style demons. If they're originally from a higher layer, they'll still retain their knowledge; they'll just be unable to use it. They'll willfully pass it on to other beings in exchange for power that might let them eventually rise.

 

[The Lost Muse]

I don't know quite how helpful this will be, but the ancient middle-eastern worldview tended to be one where the "planes" were physical places accessible, if you knew how to get there. Tartarus, for example, was below Hades, which was in a different place than Elysium. Olympus (is) was above the rest of the world. Sprites and such existed in sacred groves, near stones, on hills, in the water, etc...

Perhaps, at least for the lower planes, one simply needs to dig deeply?

 

[Turanil]

<...> the "planes" were physical places accessible, if you knew how to get there. Tartarus, for example, was below Hades, <...> Perhaps, at least for the lower planes, one simply needs to dig deeply?

If you make the planes overlapping, with weak barriers, someone could walk through all the planes - elves become mountain people, dwarves the underground miners (who may have inadvertently delved too deep once or twice).

This is what I intend to do somewhat. There are places where the boundaries between the planes are weaker. There summoning rituals have better chances of success, and gates may exist. Gates may be, or maybe not like magical doors. I like a Moorcock like unbreakable crystal door, that requires a special key to open, and has some weird characteristics. But I also like the place where you can go from one plane to the other when the stars are right and some specific rituals are performed. In any case, a passage to a lower plane will be deep underground, and to an upper plane high on a mountain.

1 - If you haven't read the Wizard-Knight by Gene Wolfe, read it. Now. It describes almost exactly the sort of cosmology you have laid out, and it's awesome to read.

Indeed these books look good. Nonetheless, at 50$ the two books I will wait before buying them.

2 - Make it easier to go down than up. Spells cast to move deeper into the layers are at least one spell level less than the same spell cast to go up. <...> Alternately, or additionally, a spell's level depends on how many layers you want to skip. <...> Drop all the plane-jumping spells down a few levels, or create new spells at lower levels.

Excellent suggestions. I will use them! That, or as one goes lower, magic is more difficult, if not impossible, so casting a Plane Shift to go down may be easy, but to come back up may be imposible!

in Norse mythology Snorri describes dwarves as originating from maggots in the body of Ymir. Dwarves native to the lower layers (not PH dwarves) could have spell resistance and/or increasing hardiness - variant duergar.

6 - In that vein, I'd take away the spell-like abilities of the drow, or change them - give them chill touch, or touch of fatigue, ray of enfeeblement as a touch attack instead of a ray.

I like the Snorri thing. Evil Duergar-like dwarves in the lower plane looks fine, and yes as NPCs only. On the other hand, there won't be drow per se. It was just to describe their typical personality, not skin-color and special powers. The elves of my campaign, Liosalfar and Dockalfar will just be slightly modified compared to PHB elves.

Mechanically, D&D has certain assumptions built in, including extraplanar spaces, the Ethereal Plane, the Astral Plane, and the existence of elemental creatures (less so the Elemental planes themselves). So you should figure out how the Ethereal and Astral function.

4 - Each layer can have its own Ethereal, so everything ethereal works and functions unchanged. The Astral might be a <...> gathering ground easily accessible from any layer, but exit via any layer but your own (possibly requiring a saving throw of increasing difficulty depending on how far away from your home layer your destination layer is). I really like this second idea, actually. What an incredible place the Astral would be!!

Agreed that I need to think hard about Astral and Ethereal in this cosmology. I am not sure to understand your idea about the Astral though.

7 - If you wanted to get geometrically funky, elements and ethos could work perpendicular to the layers -- in other words, elementals appear on all layers, and all layers have chaos/evil/law/good. Higher layers would manifest elementals with greater intelligence and spell like abilities, while lower layer elementals would be stronger and have magic resistance -- maybe becoming golem-like.

8 - I don't see any inherent contradiction with Melnibonean-style demons. If they're originally from a higher layer, they'll still retain their knowledge; they'll just be unable to use it. They'll willfully pass it on to other beings in exchange for power that might let them eventually rise.

Ah yes. I must remember with this cosmology that lower plane is not specifically tied to evil, and upper plane not specifically tied to good. Fact is that those imprisoned in the lowest plane actually came from the highest ones. They could be like angels who rebelled against God, except they would be more like great spirits who rebelled against the overall harmony and order of things, wanting to pursue personnal power and freedom to the detriment of everything else. The loyal spirits would have banished them in the lowest plane. But the lowest plane is not inherently evil. It's just the farthest away from "God", it's a place that's naturally low on resource, naturally slow and ridden with ignorant beings, who live in a "thick" world, not a fluid one. Then, the presence of rebel spirits in the lower planes (demons), may have somewhat corrupted the place (at least locally). About elementals and the like, I think they will be some types of spirits/demons. Those in the lower planes are less sentient and less magical, so they are golem-like elementals. In the upper planes they are more aware and magical, so are more genie-types.

 

[Nellisir]

The Wizard-Knight involves 3 worlds (out of 9). Each world can sometimes view the one above it. The beings native to each world worship the beings on the next highest world. Magic is relatively constant, but "reality" increases as one rises - the denizens of the highest layer are the most real, most true beings in existence.

As far as the Astral - the increasing difficulty to jump layers loses meaning if one can simply shortcut through the Astral. So, perhaps it's easy to reach a cooperative Astral Plane (one that reachs all layers), but hard to exit except onto the plane you arrived from.

The Astral could be viewed as a hole through the center of the onion, if you will.

You have 3 layers; A, B, and C. It's equally easy to reach the Astral from any layer. Similarly, someone reaching the Astral from A can easily exit back to A. It's much harder to exit onto B, and almost impossible to exit onto C. The reverse is true for someone from C. Someone from B can easily exit back to B, or to A or C with difficulty. It's almost impossible for them to reach D or A+, however.

The Astral becomes a sort of universal neutral ground. Anyone can reach it, but it's of very little tactical use. You can't conquer another layer by passing through it; easier to climb the layers.

 

[Turanil]

Ah! okay I understand now. In fact, reading this gives me an entirely new idea: there is no astral plane at all. Instead, a spell like Astral Projection, is like it's supposed to be in real world (**shrug**): it's simply a creature projecting his spirit out of his material body. The spirit can travel everywhere on the material plane, and with some help (summoning from another plane for example), could travel to another plane, but still in immaterial form. One cannot enter physically a place called the Astral plane. (note: there is still something, almost insubstantial but there. Plus powerful creatures, such as imprisoned demons can materialize a body, or they can possess someone and then warp him).

Now about the ethereal plane. This could be when one uses magic to phase out of reality, to vibrate at a difference frequency, something like that. So it's also not really a plane. Just the character changes of spectrum, of frequency... (well don't know what analogy or words to use). As such, one becomes able to go through walls, etc. The result would be that etherealness is possible in every plane, but it's not like an ethereal plane overlapping all the planes.

 

[Turanil]

I've just noticed a problem with this cosmology. If demons are imprisoned in a dimension without magic and without movement, how could be that their astral projection could be summoned in planes above? Is it just because they are gods, so with some help (summoning) they can still be called, and so they can manifest themselves on other planes, although much less powerful than the true gods they once were. Then, lesser demons would be imprisoned layers above (but still below the human plane of course), so retaining some of their sentience and ability to move?

 

[Cheiromancer]

Summoning magic could be the equivalent of lowering a rope for someone to climb up. They can't get out without the rope, but if someone provides one, there's no problem.

One of the things about Wolfe's cosmology was that time goes slower on lower planes. I can't remember the exact ratio, but it was quite significant (probably too high to be playable).

Makes demons someone you could appeal to for ancient lore, and prevents them succeeding in efforts to get out. Anything they could do in a year could be matched by Heaven in about a day. Unless Heaven grows forgetful...

A factor of x2 per layer (in a 9 or 10 layered cosmos) might be fun and workable. x10 or more would require careful thinking about logistics. PCs could get years of work done just by going up a layer or two. And would be away from home for years if they spend a few days (or a few hours) too close to hell.

 

[Funeris]

Not all of the demons/devils/evil spirits need to be imprisoned on the lowest plane. A few may have managed to hide out on a plane lower than the golem/elementals...just so they could keep some of their sentience.

It would make it easier to summon a Dretch than a Pit Fiend.

If you decided to go with the Astral as a tunnel hollowed through the center of your onion-cosmology, perhaps the summoning spells can access "hell" via it. That could also mean that there is a Gate (very possibly guarded) into "hell" hidden within the astral. It would be very bad if said gate happened to, I dunno, be opened

You might have to come up with another brand of spell (high level accessible only). If the denizens of the lower(est) planes came from above, they would have had to have been forced into the lower(est) plane by some means. They were imprisoned--possibly by magic. So now, you may have a class of spells that can push a person up or down a layer (and trick reality into thinking that he belongs there). So, it would be difficult for him to return...

That annoying necromancer bothering you. Push him up a plane or two or three (where time moves faster) and he'll subsequently age and die faster.

~Fune