D&D 5E Help new DM understand MM NPC Humaniod Stat Blocks

[BlueKnight3]

Summary: How can the NPCs enemy that has a +2 proficiency bonus (calculated from breaking down its attack bonus), also have 9 hit dice (9d8+27 HP)? Does the strict structure in creating PCs relate to the creation of NPCs?

I'm a little confused about how to create a NPC enemy as found in the examples given in the basic rules, or Monster Manual. It seems to me there are some contradictions in there. I've DM'ed some 3.5 sessions (using all pre-made npc stat blocks such as guards, thugs etc). I'm a novice in DND 5e. I have all the core books (PHB, MM, DMG) and downloaded the Basic rules, but can't seem to cross reference an answer. So, I've come here for help.

Why do some NPCs have a low Proficiency Bonus (+2) and end up with a Higher amount of Hit Dice (9d8 as in the Berserker)? Is there a somewhere that explains how to make NPCs for combat? I find rules in the DMG (p273) on how to make a Monster, and a really bad@55 chart on Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating. Is this used as well for making NPC "monsters" though they be non-monstrous humanoids?

Is there really any rules at all to restrict or guide in making some NPC guy, as long as you calculate the CR on your choices? Can you give a guy 10 hit dice, and a +2 proficiency, with Uncanny Dodge (a 5th level Rogue ability)? That just doesn't make sense to me for some reason, but if you tell me I have that freedom then okay. I guess I just see the strict structure that PC character classes are built from and wonder if NPCs must be the same? Is there a lingering concept of NPC classes such as Commoner, Noble, Acolyte, Warrior, & Expert?

Any help you can provide will be very much appreciated.

 

[Thyrwyn]

Welcome to ENWorld!

Nope - you didn't miss anything. NPCs are created just like monsters. go wild. Do whatever tickles your funny bone - 10 hit dice, +2 proficiency, Spellcasting like a 15th lvl wizard, whatever. Use the guidelines to figure out the CR and go to town. NPCs are not built like PCs in this edition.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

NPC's proficiency bonus is tied to their challenge rating, not level or hit dice. Sadly CR is just kind of darts at a board in this edition, as monsters of similar CR's are nowhere near each other in power. I was converting an older adventure that called for a Bar-lgura and noticed what an incredible wimp it was for its given CR 5. NPC Level can kind of assist, but really any of the non-daily classes are much weaker than their daily counterparts as NPC's. I'm sure that NPC champion fighter would enjoy being average in multiple encounters per day. Unfortunately he gets all of one before he dies. The NPC sorcerer who blows all his sorcery points casting quickened/twinned spells is much more of a threat in his 2-3 round life expectancy than the NPC warlock. My best suggestion is to just get a feel for your party's capability's of what constitutes a challenge and eyeball it. Fighter types are probably CR of 1/4 to 1/3 their level. Offense casters seem to be about 1/2 their level. The level 20 archmage NPC is listed as CR 12 for reference.

I really hope we get a Monster Manual 2 with better design than "sack of HP, AC of 10+1d6 and an axe". Its my only significant complaint with 5E.

 

[BlueKnight3]

Thanks for all the quick replies! This site has always been a great resource for me.
[MENTION=31506]ehren37[/MENTION] I agree with you here, as I see your point.
I'm thinking for now, until I do get a feel for my party's abilities, I will probably just wing the stats of the Non-Monstrous NPCs by using the Chart in the DMG (p273) Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating.
I don't know if that will impart any pros or cons to the session, but it won't hurt to try a session or two. My long time friends at the table are learning too, so they won't mind if we grow in this together. I have a good group of gamers.

Thanks again for the input and quick responses! I'll be keeping an

 

[Tormyr]

Thanks for all the quick replies! This site has always been a great resource for me.
[MENTION=31506]ehren37[/MENTION] I agree with you here, as I see your point.
I'm thinking for now, until I do get a feel for my party's abilities, I will probably just wing the stats of the Non-Monstrous NPCs by using the Chart in the DMG (p273) Monster Statistics by Challenge Rating.
I don't know if that will impart any pros or cons to the session, but it won't hurt to try a session or two. My long time friends at the table are learning too, so they won't mind if we grow in this together. I have a good group of gamers.

Thanks again for the input and quick responses! I'll be keeping an

Monsters entail anything with a monster stat block, including NPCs, and they are made the same way. If you are looking for a way to quickly calculate the CR for a monster, try my monster CR calculator. http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1189 You type in the different fields as if you were going through the steps in the DMG for monster creation, and it gives you the calculated CR.

 

[BlueKnight3]

Monsters entail anything with a monster stat block, including NPCs, and they are made the same way. If you are looking for a way to quickly calculate the CR for a monster, try my monster CR calculator. http://www.enworld.org/forum/rpgdownloads.php?do=download&downloadid=1189 You type in the different fields as if you were going through the steps in the DMG for monster creation, and it gives you the calculated CR.

That does look like an awesome tool. I've downloaded it already, but haven't put it to use yet. I was a little more interested in having this question answered at the moment to clear the confusion. Now that I have this answer, I think I could be depending on this tool a lot more. Thanks a lot for creating it by the way. I've got a session coming up Saturday night if the weather agrees. So I'll put some prep time in to get familiar with this.

Yet another example of how cool enworld is. Good community here. Thanks again, and well done on the CR Calculator!

 

[Tormyr]

NPC's proficiency bonus is tied to their challenge rating, not level or hit dice. Sadly CR is just kind of darts at a board in this edition, as monsters of similar CR's are nowhere near each other in power. I was converting an older adventure that called for a Bar-lgura and noticed what an incredible wimp it was for its given CR 5. NPC Level can kind of assist, but really any of the non-daily classes are much weaker than their daily counterparts as NPC's. I'm sure that NPC champion fighter would enjoy being average in multiple encounters per day. Unfortunately he gets all of one before he dies. The NPC sorcerer who blows all his sorcery points casting quickened/twinned spells is much more of a threat in his 2-3 round life expectancy than the NPC warlock. My best suggestion is to just get a feel for your party's capability's of what constitutes a challenge and eyeball it. Fighter types are probably CR of 1/4 to 1/3 their level. Offense casters seem to be about 1/2 their level. The level 20 archmage NPC is listed as CR 12 for reference.

I really hope we get a Monster Manual 2 with better design than "sack of HP, AC of 10+1d6 and an axe". Its my only significant complaint with 5E.

I do disagree with this assessment. After converting many monsters from a 3.5 AP and reverse engineering several from the MM to see how the CR was calculated (especially with spell casters), I have realized that the CR guidelines are like most other parts of 5e, a series of give and take. In this case, monsters of a particular CR are balanced between their longevity and threat.

A champion fighter, sorcerer, and warlock of the same CR would all have similar overall balances between longevity (defensive CR) and threat (offensive CR). Some may last longer (champion fighter) and do damage over more turns. Some may burn brightly and get wiped out quickly (sorcerer), but all of the monsters of the same CR will share a similar power level whether that power is skewed toward longevity or threat.

Why was the Bar-Igura such a wimp at CR5? What level and number of PCs was the party? Was the encounter supposed to be medium, hard, or deadly? What were the Bar-Igura's stats?

Some of the classes are definitely easier to eyeball than others. A wizard or sorcerer generally has a CR 2/3 of its class level, although that can change based on the spells it has.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

Really gotta disagree on the classed NPC issues. The fighter has on average 1HP more than the dragon sorcerer (plus second wind). You throw a level of fighter on that sorcerer, he has essentially the same defenses. The sorcerer has more longetivity with a quickened blade ward every turn for his lifespan than the champion can hope to achieve. An NPC paladin fares similarly with smites/heals.

Casters excel at novas. Non-casters at the hypothetcial multiple short rest days. NPC's typically have 3-4 rounds to survive. The miniscule extra hp a level a fighter gets makes little difference in comparison to a crushing offense. I've run D&D for many years, and in every edition non-casters tend to make weaker BBEG's for the same reason you need multiple encounters in a day to let non-caster PC's shine.

I';ll have to check the Barlgura when I get home. i was surprised he didnt have resistance to non-magical attacks. His damage output seemed low for CR 5 as did his HP. I compared it to the Bone Devil (also CR 5) and it seemed pretty weak. Not sure if they left something out - historically they have a teleport abduction ability that's really nasty.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

Really gotta disagree on the classed NPC issues. The fighter has on average 1HP more than the dragon sorcerer (plus second wind). You throw a level of fighter on that sorcerer, he has essentially the same defenses. The sorcerer has more longetivity with a quickened blade ward every turn for his lifespan than the champion can hope to achieve. An NPC paladin fares similarly with smites/heals.

Casters excel at novas. Non-casters at the hypothetcial multiple short rest days. NPC's typically have 3-4 rounds to survive. The miniscule extra hp a level a fighter gets makes little difference in comparison to a crushing offense. I've run D&D for many years, and in every edition non-casters tend to make weaker BBEG's for the same reason you need multiple encounters in a day to let non-caster PC's shine.

I';ll have to check the Barlgura when I get home. i was surprised he didnt have resistance to non-magical attacks. His damage output seemed low for CR 5 as did his HP. I compared it to the Bone Devil (also CR 5) and it seemed pretty weak. Not sure if they left something out - historically they have a teleport abduction ability that's really nasty.

Barlgura can get advantage on all 3 of it's attacks which hit pretty hard in exchange for being hit easier. They also have a few spells. Bone Devils are also CR 9 not 5.

 

[DaveDash]

NPC's proficiency bonus is tied to their challenge rating, not level or hit dice. Sadly CR is just kind of darts at a board in this edition, as monsters of similar CR's are nowhere near each other in power. I was converting an older adventure that called for a Bar-lgura and noticed what an incredible wimp it was for its given CR 5. NPC Level can kind of assist, but really any of the non-daily classes are much weaker than their daily counterparts as NPC's. I'm sure that NPC champion fighter would enjoy being average in multiple encounters per day. Unfortunately he gets all of one before he dies. The NPC sorcerer who blows all his sorcery points casting quickened/twinned spells is much more of a threat in his 2-3 round life expectancy than the NPC warlock. My best suggestion is to just get a feel for your party's capability's of what constitutes a challenge and eyeball it. Fighter types are probably CR of 1/4 to 1/3 their level. Offense casters seem to be about 1/2 their level. The level 20 archmage NPC is listed as CR 12 for reference.

I really hope we get a Monster Manual 2 with better design than "sack of HP, AC of 10+1d6 and an axe". Its my only significant complaint with 5E.

Creatures in the MM can be a bit iffy, spell casters especially, but creatures built using the DMG guidelines are surprisingly accurate.