D&D 5E Help new DM understand MM NPC Humaniod Stat Blocks

Barlgura can get advantage on all 3 of it's attacks which hit pretty hard in exchange for being hit easier. They also have a few spells. Bone Devils are also CR 9 not 5.

Yeah, I was thinking of Barbed Devils. Mainly their HP are pretty terrible for a CR 5 melee brute (68) and for some reason they lack the resistance vs. non-magic weapons that virtually every other demon has. I'm not sure if the latter is an oversight or not.
 

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Yeah, I was thinking of Barbed Devils. Mainly their HP are pretty terrible for a CR 5 melee brute (68) and for some reason they lack the resistance vs. non-magic weapons that virtually every other demon has. I'm not sure if the latter is an oversight or not.
Sorry, I was rather dense and forgot the barlgura is actually in the MM already.

Reckless has a net 0 effect on CR, but the combination of damage resistances and immunity doubles its effective hp. The end result is that the barlgura is a CR 5 for both offensive and defensive CR.
The effective HP is 136 which is defensive CR 5, and the AC of 15 is what is expected so there is no adjustment.
The effective DPR is 29 which is offensive CR 4, but the AB of 7 is 2 more than what is expected, so the offensive CR is adjusted up by 1 to 5.

When I mentioned the different NPC types being roughly equal, it was for NPCs of the same CR, not the same class level. So certainly NPCs of the same class level can be different CRs. I have an encounter coming up probably next week that has a CR10 Champion fighter and a CR10 wizard. In terms of damage and class abilities, the fighter needed to have the traits of a level 17 fighter. This included all of the extra attacks, action surges, and indomitable uses a level 17 champion fighter would have. However, the hp of 176 would have been too high after factoring in the pseudo legendary resistance of indomitable. While I normally would have just kept the hp and skipped indomitable, I have a monk that likes to spam stunning strike, so the extra saving throws will be useful to keep him from getting stun-locked.

Meanwhile, wizards generally have a CR that is 2/3 of their spellcaster level. The CR12 archmage is an 18th level spellcaster for instance. The CR10 wizard I am making will most likely be a 15th level spellcaster. So while the class levels will be different, the CR of both NPCs will be the same, and both will be a roughly equal threat over 3 rounds.
 

Yeah, that ape demon looks anemic compared to a shambling mound. Since it already had the HP counted as double, adding in the weapon resists wouldn't make further bearing on the CR.
I really hope we get a Monster Manual 2 with better design than "sack of HP, AC of 10+1d6 and an axe". Its my only significant complaint with 5E.
I think the simplicity is handy overall since players fight GROUPS of foes and every foe being a special snowflake with 3 to 4 options can be a beast to keep track of. EDIT: After one reads through the DMG CR rules, it is kinda easy to add extra abilities onto foes without having to fully rework CR provided the DM doesn't mind fluxing around some HP, AC and damage output.

Making a quill shooting, regenerating Tarrasque like the Paizo version isn't hard for example. Adding an eldritch plasma breath weapon might be a little more math, but would still be simple enough.
 
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Sorry, I was rather dense and forgot the barlgura is actually in the MM already.

Reckless has a net 0 effect on CR, but the combination of damage resistances and immunity doubles its effective hp. The end result is that the barlgura is a CR 5 for both offensive and defensive CR.

I think you missed it doesn't have weapon resistance like every other demon save the dretch - even the lowly quasit has it. I'm thinking the lack of resistance may be a typo, if so, it still has low HP for its CR, but its not a complete pushover. Its only immunity is to poison, which is at the low end of what you want immunity to as a monster vs pc's.
 
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I think you missed it doesn't have weapon resistance like every other demon save the dretch - even the lowly quasit has it. I'm thinking the lack of resistance may be a typo, if so, it still has low HP for its CR, but its not a complete pushover. Its only immunity is to poison, which is at the low end of what you want immunity to as a monster vs pc's.

No, I did not miss it. For purposes of determining CR it does not matter. The barlgura already has 3 other resistances. That coupled with its immunity to poison is enough to double its effective hit points. The resistance to bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing damage is only for non-magical weapon attacks anyway. So that can be negated depending on what the party has. Depending on the level of the party, 68 hp with the elemental resistances will be more than enough to keep it up for two to three rounds.

The barlgura seems like it is a decent CR5 monster. It can cast invisibility on itself before combat, run up to the level 5 wizard who has 22hp-32hp and have a reasonable chance of knocking it out in the first round (or the cleric if it has weak looking armor). Suddenly the party is down 1/4 of its power in the first round. The fighter attacks and surges for another 2 attacks. With a +6 to hit (maybe a +7) 3 of those attacks hit for 24 damage. The rogue attacks with two attacks, and hits with both and does 20 damage. The cleric uses healing word or a potion to get the wizard back in the fight and avoid coup de grace. The barlgura has 24hp remaining.

Round two, the barlgura uses reckless and attacks the wizard and then the rogue, the wizard goes back down, the rogue takes 20 damage. The fighter hits with both attacks for 17 damage and the rogue finishes it off.

This was just a basic white room scenario with average to hit used instead of rolling. The scenario could have gone lots of different directions. This is just one possibility. The fight lasted 2 to 3 rounds, which is normal for a medium encounter. The barlgura provided low to medium risk for the party, which one would expect from a medium encounter. Medium encounters should not be too difficult and cause a small expenditure of resources. The party used an action surge and 2 potions or level 1 healing spells, and it is down roughly 40 hp. They could have skipped the action surge and probably still finished it off in two rounds. The end result in resources would still be about the same.

If the wizard had not gone down, it probably would not have blown a fireball on a single creature. If it had, the average damage would be 14 from resistance, and 7 if it made its saving throw. Magic missile averages 10. 2 of 3 scorching ray bolts would hit for 14 or 7 damage. So even if the wizard didn't go down first, it would have to be more creative to contribute to the fight. It seems like this guy's job is to negate the wizard's effectiveness.

The 68 hp looks low, but is plenty to survive 2-3 rounds. It will probably be on the low end of that, maybe even 1-2 rounds, but it will do plenty of damage in that encounter. Which is where the balance comes in. A CR5 generic monster made just from the cheat sheet table generally lasts 3 rounds, but it takes longer to do its damage. If you look at the monsters in the MM, most have less hp than what the table suggests. In each case, it is because of higher damage, AC, resistances, immunity, ranged flyer, or something else. But each of them has a reason for it, and most of them would last 2 to 3 rounds as a solo against a 4 character party of the same level as its CR.
 
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That's a really good analysis! Thanks!

Current party consists of a 3rd level Paladin, Warlock, Rogue and 4th level NPC cleric (and an imp I guess). We actually get to play Saturday, so we'll see how they perform against the demon monkey. They have consistently surprised me by stomping everything, though as they note, the paladin is prone to getting crits and blowing a smite at an opportune time.
 

That's a really good analysis! Thanks!

Current party consists of a 3rd level Paladin, Warlock, Rogue and 4th level NPC cleric (and an imp I guess). We actually get to play Saturday, so we'll see how they perform against the demon monkey. They have consistently surprised me by stomping everything, though as they note, the paladin is prone to getting crits and blowing a smite at an opportune time.
Thanks for the kind words.

3rd level party against this guy could get exciting fast. That is a deadly encounter. The average damage per round is enough to knock out any of those characters outright, so things could get hairy fast!

I know what you mean about PCs overcoming any odds. In our current campaign, no PC has died in 10 months of weekly 3 hour sessions (although that may change tonight; see the evil DM thread). The PCs have gotten through many times unscathed when I thought I was looking at a TPK.
 

So to follow up, ran the fight this weekend. The original setup consisted of 4 zombies, a 7th level shapechanger rogue disguised to look like a zombie, and an 8th level sorcerer/cleric with a willing sacrificial victim who was to serve as the demon's host. The cleric was performing a ritual, and if not disrupted by the end of the 2nd round of combat, the demon's essence would flood into the poor mortal, and the Barlgura burst out of him on the 4th round of the fight. This would also open a portal to the a sublayer of the abyss in the temple, as well as the town square of their village. Dretch would subsequently flood into the town. Party consisted of a 3rd level oath of the ancients paladin, 3rd level infernal warlock, 3rd level thief rogue, an imp, and a 4th level cleric of life.

The zombies were able to tie down movement by bottlenecking and grappling at a choke point to effectively prevent two of the party members from reaching the cleric and the disguised rogue got a nasty sneak attack off on the party's rogue. Despite their best efforts, they were unable to disrupt the ritual in time, and the cultist began his transformation. The party wisely ignored the zombies in the fight, and a lucky crit smite from the paladin sent the enemy rogue scurrying to the abyss for safety. The ritual finished, the cleric/sorcerer joined the fray for a few rounds, casting swift blade ward and some nasty spells until he was taken to half hit points then decided to sit in a resilent sphere and take notes. Everyone but the warlock was dropped to 0 at least one, and the rogue was almost killed by zombies that continued to attack her while down until the paladin turned them. The barl'gura was pretty devastating, and downed the paladin, who was yo-yo'd up by the cleric (who was then downed by the demon). The rogue fed people healing potions with her fast hands, and they managed to prevail.

The fight would have been super deadly for their level if played straight, but they had a few things going for them. The cult leader spent the first 2 rounds bringing in a reinforcement that didnt show up until the 4th. Both NPC's didnt fight to the death, and bailed at around 1/2 to 1/3 HP. Also, because the barlgura burst onto the scene mid fight, he lsot the element of surprise he would have otherwise have with invisibility, and his and the party's placement was poor for his entangle. Had he ambushed the party, it would have been much worse for them.

With the demon dead (the barlgura effectively was an aspect of an ape demon lord) the portals were closing. Realizing they needed to act fast, the party ran through the closing portal INTO the abyss, vaulted over the pile of dretch that were logjammed trying to get through the poral (CE creatures are just poor at waiting in line in an orderly fashion), and through the portal in the Abyss that lead back to town where they split up to rescue NPC's from burning buildings, stop dretch from slaughtering the horses in the stable, and aid the temple and town guard in chasing off a babau. Everyone felt pretty badass to say the least and a good time was had by all.
 


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