Help with a Dwarven Fighter Build (12th)

[Korak]

Korak: Power Critical got changed in 3.5. It now only grants a +4 bonus when confirming criticals. Its still nice, but nowhere near as powerful as it was in 3.0.

I know, it was stupid broken in 3.0, and I never used it for that reason. The 3.5 version didn't look like anything special when I first read it in the new CW, but I did the math, and it is very good.

 

[Endur]

Can't go wrong with Dwarven Defender. DR, +bonus to AC, Defensive Stance, Uncanny Dodge, d12 hit dice

 

[James McMurray]

I know, it was stupid broken in 3.0, and I never used it for that reason. The 3.5 version didn't look like anything special when I first read it in the new CW, but I did the math, and it is very good.

Wold you mind redoing the math for those of us in the peanut gallery? Wen I look at it I just think "blah".

 

[Korak]

Wold you mind redoing the math for those of us in the peanut gallery? Wen I look at it I just think "blah".

Sure.

Level 16 Melee type, with 16 base attack, total attack bonus of 30, swinging a keen shocking burst greataxe for normal d12+18 damage at an AC28 target subject to crits and with no electrical resistance. Assuming Power Attack is taken, the expected damage without power critical on a hasted full attack is 143.... with power critical 183.

That is a very average type build, not specifically designed to take advantage of bonus critical damage effects, or have a stupendously good threat range. I've attached my two handed power attack optimizer spreadsheet with those numbers plugged in. Simply switch the power critical cell from 0 to 1 to see the difference. It's not the most user-friendly sheet at the moment, but it is mostly for my use. Feel free to check the math.

Actually, what I uploaded was from before I switched all the way from greatsword to greataxe, to get the exact example I used above, change Average Weapon Damage 7 to a 6.5 and change Average Bonus Critical Damage 5.5 to 11.

 

[James McMurray]

Nice! Consider the sheet hereby "yoinked". I would never bother with it in my face to face games, but it could be useful in an arena, especially since I generally stink at making melee characters.

 

[Shallown]

I've not actually done the math on power critical but so far in the last few sessins someone had it they used it and it worked. that extra +4 makes a noticable difference when your secondary/itenerate attacks hit. the ones you might need a crit just to hit you suddenly have a better chance to confirm.

It was a little broken in 3.0 but I like it now.

Also his stats with racial adjustments and level adjustments till 8th level (when he was last played) are str 18, dex 13, con 18, the rest 10s and a 7 Char.

He is a nasty brusier right now. I am reading these to offer suggestions where he might go from here. He has the grt wpn focus and Spec already.

Power critical may be next.

 

[James McMurray]

I would definitely aim for Combat Brute and Shock Trooper, not necessarily in that order. The actual order would depend more on the game. If there are many foes with high AC that you get to charge at, Shock Trooper will be nice becuse it shifts Power Attack penalties to AC instead of to hit. If there are lots of mooks hiding behind tower shields, Combat Brute will let you shatter the shield and the guy behind it in the same attack.

 

[The Souljourner]

Korak - I'll be honest, I couldn't follow all the calculations on your spreadsheet... all those table lookups just killed me.

So, I made my own calculations, ignoring power attack for the moment, simply because it doesn't really matter... it only affects your average damage, and power critical just affects a percentage of the average damage.

I did a quickie, and noticed a slight discrepency between my calculations and what your sheet gave (setting power attack multiple to 0)... something on the order of a 5% difference (just over 1 damage). Not sure what that means.

In the end, power critical seems to add at best 1 damage per hit on average, and that's at high levels where you're doing tons of damage. Even at 8th level doing d12+10 damage, I see a tiny tiny increase in damage, about .3 damage per hit for most ac/attack bonus combinations.

The problem is that power critical will matter at best 2% of the time for a 19-20 weapon... 10% of the time you'll roll a threat, and at best 20% of the time power critical will be the thing that makes the difference. 10% * 20% = 2%.

I say at best, because in cases where you hit automatically or miss automatically regardless of power critical, it does you no good.

So.... yeah, it sucks. Sorry.

-The Souljourner

 

[green slime]

Hmmm...

Well there are lots of campaign dependant factors, but in a combat intensive campaign such as my own (RttToEE), where battles can extend into long affairs: (30+ rounds are not unusual), 2% would occur about once per gaming session...

 

[Korak]

Korak - I'll be honest, I couldn't follow all the calculations on your spreadsheet... all those table lookups just killed me.

So, I made my own calculations, ignoring power attack for the moment, simply because it doesn't really matter... it only affects your average damage, and power critical just affects a percentage of the average damage.

I'm not sure it is that simple. I have seen that power attack does not behave in a truly intuitive manner because of the number of variables involved. Furthermore, with two handed power attack being able to add so much fixed damage (which gets mulitplied in the crit), you can get into situations where critical hits on low AC foes easily top 100 damage per shot. Power attack for 16 on a 2 handed weapon = 96 damage on a crit, just from power attack. So, if you can confirm that threat 20% more often, it makes a difference. The math is sufficiently complex that I could not get a hold on how big the impact was without brute forcing the actual results in a spreadsheet. If you can search back a few weeks for the thread on improved rapid shot, I think I got into some detailed breakdown of my formulas there.

I say at best, because in cases where you hit automatically or miss automatically regardless of power critical, it does you no good.
-The Souljourner

Actually, I think I have a concession to make here. I think when I was altering the equation to support power critical, I may have inadvertently allowed crits to be confirmed on a 16+ when higher than a 20 was actually needed to hit (so the 20 hits, but because it is a 20, not because 20+mods actually hits the ac). I'll have to tinker with this part. I'll get back to you.