help with CR of a trap and was it fair?

[whorobbedme]

in our game we came across a trap our DM made, we presume. it was 15ftx10ft wide had a 50ft drop the bottom was covered in acid up to knee hight and it had a reset time of 5rounds. our 7th lvl rouge died in it due to us not being able to reopen the trap on time as the rouge melted to death in the acid.

was this a fair trap for a group of 4 7th lvl players? and what would the CR of that trap of bein?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

We'd need more detail.

What table rules do you follow for searching for traps? Was the trap placed in a logical location? Is it the kind of trap that could just kill a dungeon employee?

Falling into a pit trap is a Reflex DC 20 check. Rogues have good Reflex saves, and have trap sense +2 by that level. Is the campaign following Wealth by Level? Did you roll rather than buy stats?

They fell into a 50 foot deep trap, but with liquid at the bottom. That probably cut 10 to 20 feet worth of damage right there. But then there's the acid. How much damage did it do? Was it ongoing?

How slippery were the walls? (What was the Climb DC?) If the rogue could make it, they could climb up and hang on to the side, away from the acid.

Were the untrapped PCs able to do anything? The pit had a top, right, so why not just break it with a hammer?

Was there a fight going on as well, or was this just a random acid pit trap? (Lots of traps get poorly used this way.)

Short response: We need a lot more detail before we could assign a CR value or say if it's fair.

 

[Jester David]

All things being equal, it sounds like it could be level appropriate.

A fifty-foot pit is only CR 5 while a CR 7 pit trap is seventy-feet deep. Thus depends on how much acid damage the pit trap did. If it burned for only a d6 of 2d4 per round then it might be fair, or pushing a CR 8 at most. If it was any more damage than it might be higher, but would have to be more than 5d6 to pass beyond CR 9 and into remotely unfair territory (excluding sitting in the acid).
It also depends on the Climb DC for the walls.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Since when were traps meant to be fair?

 

[Sekhmet]

By ECL7, your party has access to flight, protection from elements, healing, magical means to detect traps, evade the area, or deal with the encounter some other way.

This trap seems level appropriate to me. I'd put it's CR between 5 and 8.

 

[the Jester]

Yep, another vote for Fair and Balanced.

Sorry about your party's rogue, but traps kill people.

 

[whorobbedme]

We'd need more detail.

What table rules do you follow for searching for traps? Was the trap placed in a logical location? Is it the kind of trap that could just kill a dungeon employee?

Falling into a pit trap is a Reflex DC 20 check. Rogues have good Reflex saves, and have trap sense +2 by that level. Is the campaign following Wealth by Level? Did you roll rather than buy stats?

They fell into a 50 foot deep trap, but with liquid at the bottom. That probably cut 10 to 20 feet worth of damage right there. But then there's the acid. How much damage did it do? Was it ongoing?

How slippery were the walls? (What was the Climb DC?) If the rogue could make it, they could climb up and hang on to the side, away from the acid.

Were the untrapped PCs able to do anything? The pit had a top, right, so why not just break it with a hammer?

Was there a fight going on as well, or was this just a random acid pit trap? (Lots of traps get poorly used this way.)

Short response: We need a lot more detail before we could assign a CR value or say if it's fair.

the rogue rolled a 1 on his reflex, trap was in an unlikly place.
the walls of the pit were smooth but with the help of a rope he started to climb out till the doors slam'd shut and cut the rope droping the rogue to the acid again.

 

[whorobbedme]

All things being equal, it sounds like it could be level appropriate.

A fifty-foot pit is only CR 5 while a CR 7 pit trap is seventy-feet deep. Thus depends on how much acid damage the pit trap did. If it burned for only a d6 of 2d4 per round then it might be fair, or pushing a CR 8 at most. If it was any more damage than it might be higher, but would have to be more than 5d6 to pass beyond CR 9 and into remotely unfair territory (excluding sitting in the acid).
It also depends on the Climb DC for the walls.

the acid in the pit was doing around 13-18 points of damage a round.
dosent the area the pit covers drive up its CR and with the damage of the acid and the fall in one round and it being liquid not drive it up more?
im working it out at at least CR12.
CR7 for damage and +5 for liquid, would i be way off in doing this?

 

[Grogg of the North]

Ah the joys of deciphering the trap section of the DMG. I'll try my best to help out here too.

Well, an 60ft pit trap is a CR3 (DMG 71). A wide mouth version of a pit trap tends to increase the CR but the CR increase isn't consistent. A 20ft spiked pit only increases by +2 but a 100 ft non-spiked trap increases by +4 (DMG 72-73). Lets err on the side of caution and say +2.

From reading the DMG, it sounds like the CR adjustment for a liquid is not really appropriate for this trap. It sounds like it's more for drowning or suffocation such as if the room is filling with water or you fall into an underground river and are swept away. (DMG 70)

From what you've said, the acid damage is a bit more than your standard DMG acid effects. It's doing more damage than regular but you're not making fort saves vs. con damage either (DMG 302). However, since the acid is entirely dependent on the pit trap, we probably shouldn't add it to the CR of the pit trap (DMG 75). If I were to add it to the CR, I guess I would say +2 but that's more of a WAG.

It looks like if we add the CR up it should be around a 7. CR 3 base + 2 for wide opening + 2 for acid (debatable). I make no assertions that my understanding of the rules are sage-like. So it is likely I may have missed something or gotten something wrong.

Out of curiosity, how did your GM react when the rogue died? Glee? Shocked? Panic and back pedaling as they realized the trap was too deadly?

 

[MDK]

Other than a generic caution at DMs that trap CRs can be horribly misleading (especially when they involve spells), it does seem like the rogue died legitimately.
The only thing I might debate is the closing trapdoor cutting through the rope: rope thick and strong enough to hold the weight of a human being generally isn't cut that easily, especially with something as blunt as a trap door. On the other hand, since you say the door *slammed* shut, suggesting speed, even that isn't too far fetched: the only reason I might argue about it as a player is because the rogue actually died in the trap; otherwise I wouldn't bother.
(I am vaguely wondering how the trap works though: pit trap doors generally open by dropping down and then hanging from their hinges: not a situation I'd associate with them slamming shut with enough force to cut through a rope. But again: I'd only actually argue to save the rogues life.)