D&D 5E Help With Disruptive Players(?)

[Warpiglet]

I'm still learning how to properly run a campaign such that everyone at the table has the most fun while getting to enjoy the worlds and stories I spend time building for each character. Things were going fine at first, but I've run into some problems and I don't know what to do. The campaign I'm currently running is with friends who used to be dungeon masters themselves and who have been helping me with rules and running this first campaign I've designed (I wanted to run a homebrew instead of a pre-built one so I wanted help).

I don't know what to call it in d&d but in other games I've heard it called "min-maxers". My friends are a lot better at d&d than me and they know it, often using their experience to run the story and push me around. They're always looking to make the most efficient character which doesn't normally bother me except things have gotten extreme. They've started arguing me over every single rule.

I remember one session, I told a player they couldn't "see" as a bat because they had been deafened (a fellow player set off a thunder clap right next to the bat because they forgot thunder is loud) and they spent an hour arguing with me over how I must be wrong because they wanted to pull off a cool maneuver as a bat that would allow them to get around a darkness spell. That same player has told me that their character's lifetime goal is to have straight 30 stats despite the fact that the character shouldn't know about stats or magic stat raising books. They're playing a cleric but spend every session complaining about how they don't do as much damage as the monk.

The other player has started getting aggressive and assuming they deserve to always get their way. There's a merchant in the campaign that won't give the players a legendary item that was once used to start a war but otherwise has been very helpful to the players. This player has started calling the merchant derogatory terms because they won't give them this one thing. They do this to every npc that doesn't give them what they want. This player insists that their character is good even though they do this and have even threatened to let an entire city get destroyed just because they don't like one of the city's council members (the council member was just doing their job and has never done anything to harm the players).

Both players also managed to min max to the point where their ACs have been around 22-25 since the beginning of the campaign (level 3). I checked and it seemed to make sense and the players got mad at me whenever I brought it up. The only way I could hit them is with a crit even when the creatures have a +5 modifier (they always find a way to boost their ac in a way that's technically not against the rules). They also have managed to max their damage to the point where, no matter what I throw against them, the monster is either killed in one round or perma stunned. This mostly bothers me because I want there to be fun combat and I don't think this is fun because there's no challenge. I've tried to get around it by making creative combat (such as adding in an oasis that was secretly a mimic. The players were fighting a different monster and didn't notice the mimic until one of them ran onto the oasis to escape the monsters hiding in the sand). However, my players get mad at me when I try to get creative because it means they can't immediately kill the monster or they take a whole 6 damage.

What can I do? I love d&d and building campaigns and want to create a fun campaign that players will be able to enjoy as much as I enjoyed playing d&d but I feel miserable. It looks like there are a lot of experienced players/dungeon masters here so I was hoping some of you might know what I could do.

First of all, I have sympathy for your plight. That just sucks. Don't be hard on yourself. Unfortunately, you have simply joined up with players who happen to have a different mindset. Once my group was set to play with several new players who insisted their "surface drow" had not penalties to light. Ugh. This was 1st edition so they of course wanted to fight with two longsword without penalty. Just no.

In any event, it is not too hard to simply add a bonus to hit from monsters each and every time. They have homebrew races? You have homebrew monsters. Just make it proportionate. If their AC is 4 higher that is reasonable, you have a +4 to hit. If they whine, they can make a deal to have less power and you will in turn make the supercharged monsters less charged.

Have an in game reason...the monsters in the area have been steeped in unhallowed evil energy or whatever....

 

[akr71]

^ Yep, level the playing field again.

 

[Ahriri]

This doesn't sound like a table of min/maxers - it sounds like a group of Monty Haul players. Wanting and expecting great stats and great items right out of the gate. Pretty hard to reign it in now - I think you need to restart.

I would respectfully suggest that a new DM limit characters to PHB classes and races, maybe add Xanathar's Guide if the player really wants. No special races, no homebrew, unless created by or in conjunction with the DM and magic items are found or earned. No freebies. It will give you the breathing room needed to find your style.

Also - you say these are all old friends from school. Do they treat you like that in real life? Not listening, badgering, bullying, etc - until you go along with what they want or give in to them?

I looked it up and yes I've been struggling with the proper amount of loot to give out. I've been checking the DMG a lot but it can still be difficult to determine the right amount of gold to dole out for a job under pressure. It's more difficult since I've been looking to my friends for some guidance since they have more experience than me and they always get upset when I give them a number I rolled from the table and keep prodding me until I give them more. Everyone has been mentioning that my word is the final say but it's difficult to follow that when you're a relatively new DM and your players know that you don't have too much confidence yet. At this point, I've just been taking notes on what to do in the future since I'm afraid they've already pushed me to give too much in the beginning.

Restrictions definitely sound like a good idea, especially when it comes to races and stats. I went to a pathfinder session for a while where we had predetermined stats that we got to distribute and that felt nice. Didn't have to worry about someone strangely getting three 18s while another person gets below average stats. Plus it removed a lot of the math which can be confusing for some new players or let people join faster.

Yes, they're friends from college. I'd like to think they treat me nicer in real life but it's hard to say. They're a lot nicer than the other people I used to hang out with (not really willingly) which makes things confusing. I don't want to weigh you down with details though.

 

[happyhermit]

If you can work it, run a game for some new players (new to ttrpgs entirely even), preferably in person. I recommend using the starter set actually as it lays down some good expectations IME. This will help you get the confidence you need and will ensure you are not in a position of feeling you need to put up with BS just because you want to run games. The players don't respect you as a GM, this is a thing that can happen when someone has to cede any "authority" to someone less experienced than them, though it shouldn't.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

The most important, and perhaps the hardest, thing you're gonna need to learn to do is:

Being able to say NO.

..and stand by your decision.

Without being able to do this they will consistently be able to drag you into a fight. When you can say NO, and stand by it, you can demonstrate there is no fight to be had. This can be applied to a rules calling and also extended to, 'If you want this game to continue, take a breath, calm down and speak to me as you would wish to be spoken to.' Let them rage. Let them get all worked up. Let them huff and puff. Let them use all their energy. And when they're done? When they're exhausted themselves?

Say NO.

Keep calm. Stay cool. Remain firm.*

If they can't handle you saying no - to their characters, to their decisions, to their behaviours etc -then invite them to DM themselves. And personally, I'd leave them to it.

Life is too short to waste on petty conflicts. If you can, move on. We'll all be deadin the end anyhoo!

Good luck!


*..this also works for training dogs. Honestly, there's a lot of overlap. Terrifying. And true!

 

[Warmaster Horus]

As DM with a group like this make sure you ...
1) ...are up on the rules.
2) ...have a copy of the player character sheets so you can check their legality. Don't be afraid to point out any errors to them.

When it comes to arguing with the DM, I will allow someone to plead their opinion but only for a minute or two. If there's a rule in question it is up to the player to produce it in the short amount of time provided - and no, tweets or other non-canonical stuff are not binding. Then I consider what was said and what my take is on the situation. If the player doesn't like that DM decision, too bad, no more arguing. We can take it up off line, after the game.

If the player insists on continuing to be disruptive, I give a warning. If it continues, like AT ALL, they're out of the game. I'm there to have a good time, not get into nerd-rage arguments over a detail that I've already ruled on.

 

[jasper]

As DM with a group like this make sure you ...
1) ...are up on the rules.
2) ...have a copy of the player character sheets so you can check their legality. Don't be afraid to point out any errors to them.

When it comes to arguing with the DM, I will allow someone to plead their opinion but only for a minute or two. If there's a rule in question it is up to the player to produce it in the short amount of time provided - and no, tweets or other non-canonical stuff are not binding. Then I consider what was said and what my take is on the situation. If the player doesn't like that DM decision, too bad, no more arguing. We can take it up off line, after the game.

If the player insists on continuing to be disruptive, I give a warning. If it continues, like AT ALL, they're out of the game. I'm there to have a good time, not get into nerd-rage arguments over a detail that I've already ruled on.

Arguing with a dm is not cool. But Warmaster horse can not see the difference between my well thought out AND LOGICAL DEBATE and arguing. But far be from me to gripe. After all, it is GOOD TRAINING TO GIVE NEWBIES TROUBLE. IT TEACHES THEM QUICKER THAT USING THE BOOK. Besides I had to go through it, so should all other dms.
Copy of my PC are you saying I am cheating. I have been playing 37 years, 4 months, 3 weeks, 2 days, 1 hour and 15 minutes. I know the system. You as dm should have already had SYSTEM MASTERY before you took the chair.
(jasper grabs Warmaster drinks and finished off, then throws the empty into Horus game bag).
Pause.
Hey without me you would not have a group! Where are you going to go to get new players. I know everyone who plays around here and will tell them how awful of DM you are. THat is right, I will black list you from the surrounding area. Deal with it newby.
Please, it is not nerd rage, it is geek rage. Gee right for once you freaking GOOBER......
Jasper comes his hair over his bald spots, and flounces out of the discussion.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

...

...

When two honey badgers collide!

 

[JonnyP71]

I looked it up and yes I've been struggling with the proper amount of loot to give out. I've been checking the DMG a lot but it can still be difficult to determine the right amount of gold to dole out for a job under pressure. It's more difficult since I've been looking to my friends for some guidance since they have more experience than me and they always get upset when I give them a number I rolled from the table and keep prodding me until I give them more. Everyone has been mentioning that my word is the final say but it's difficult to follow that when you're a relatively new DM and your players know that you don't have too much confidence yet. At this point, I've just been taking notes on what to do in the future since I'm afraid they've already pushed me to give too much in the beginning.

Keys thing to remember in 5E
- adventurers tend to have very few mechanical needs for monetary treasure
- magic items are the surefire way to give the PCs a power spike

Until you are comfortable with judging how much they actually need, if in doubt always give them *less* than the book recommends for each level, as this will ensure you don't inadvertently mess up the balance. It is absolutely fine for a PC to reach level 5-6 without ever finding anything more powerful than a single use potion or scroll, as, unlike previous versions of the game, the encounter rules do not assume the party have access to magic items!

If they absolutely *must* have magic items then think of some flavourful ones, which have very specific uses. At about 6th level, I gave my group's fighter a fine white Longsword that shed light in a 10' radius and did +1d6 radiant damage to undead and fiends. The key element though was that as it was a magical sword, it could do normal damage to creatures immune/resistance to normal weapons. Another character had a shield that could create an immunity to fear aura for 1 minute, once per day, along with a mail shirt that granted resistance to electrical damage. Most importantly, none of these items had any flat +1/+2 bonuses - they were very situational.

 

[iserith]

On the matter of treasure, here's what I do in general (with some variation for particular campaigns or one-shots):

1. Treasure is a reward for exploration. XP is the reward for overcoming combat or social interaction challenges.

2. All treasure is randomly determined. Rarely do monsters have treasure on them. If I decide it makes sense they do, it's from the Individual Treasure tables in the DMG and one roll's results is typically split between the monster group.

3. Treasure hoards are typically discovered by careful exploration, finding secret doors, and/or overcoming traps. Sometimes monsters lair in the area in which the hoard can be found, but the treasure isn't just laying there on the ground with the monster sleeping atop it. You need to explore to find treasure.

4. Wandering monsters never have treasure.

5. There are 1 to 3 treasure hoards per adventure location.

I've found this keeps the PCs in enough coin to upgrade armor at the appropriate time and to have some gold to throw around, but keeps them lean enough to want to keep exploring. Most items tend to be consumables with a few neat items over the course of the campaign, but nothing too crazy.