D&D 5E Help With Disruptive Players(?)

[Dausuul]

It can be good to allow some debate on a rules question, but when you make a final ruling, be clear that it's final. Do not get drawn into arguments after that. When the players start to argue, just say "I've made my ruling. That's how it is. Move on." And stick to that. Do not justify, explain, or engage.

As far as min-maxing goes, some of the players in my group have the same tendency to crank their builds to the max. The way I handle it when DMing:

• Lots of weak monsters that are easy prey for their optimized selves. Let them feel badass.
• Groan loudly about how my monsters can't lay a finger on them. Let them feel like they're putting one over on me.
• When I feel they've been sufficiently pampered, throw them into a jacked-up encounter that puts them in terror for their lives. CR guidelines out the window. More monsters. Bigger monsters. Spellcasting monsters. Monsters with weird special powers that are nowhere to be found in the books. Traps and ambushes and environmental hazards. Make them earn their victory with blood and sweat and pain.

I generally find this leaves the players all feeling tough and satisfied. And as far as my enjoyment goes... well, the look on players' faces when the lich says "Die" and the cleric falls over dead without a saving throw*, that just never gets old.

All that said, some groups are beyond fixing. If they keep whining and arguing and making your life hell, there's no shame in saying, "Sorry, guys. I'm not having any fun with this. Peace out." Hang up the screen and go back to playing. If you really have the itch to DM, go in search of another group, or find some folks and teach them how to play. Life's too short for bad gaming.

[SIZE=-2]*Totally by-the-book; power word kill is on the standard lich spell list. I made sure to let them find a resurrection item before the combat, and I targeted the cleric because his player wasn't there that night, so he wouldn't have to sit out. The trick is to set up your safety net without letting the players realize that's what you're doing.[/SIZE]

 

[Harzel]

TBH, it sounds like the cleric player has issues that cannot be addressed within a game of D&D, and perhaps not even in a conversation about the game either. That said, a few thoughts:

1. You said that your players have DM'ed. Have they DM'ed a 5e game? Have they played 5e before? Some of their expectations (stats, loot, availability of magic items) sound a bit 3.5-ish.
2. Did you play in any of the campaigns that they ran? Did they allow the players to pull lots of shenanigans? Did they run Monty Haul games? Were the NPCs in their games totally compliant with PC demands?
3. Before talking with them any more about your reaction and desires for the game (and before putting energy into 'enforcing' any particular type of game), maybe you could delve into what they want the game to be like. And get away from discussing particular rules or character builds because that is more a how instead of what.
   • Explicitly make the point that the challenge level of the game can be set independently from PC stats and quantity of magic items. As DMs, they should understand this, but it might be useful to make sure that they understand that you understand this.
   • Ask them straight up what kind / level of challenge they want their characters to face. Do they really want to curbstomp every opponent? Are they ok with mission failure, but just don't want their characters to die? Do they care about a living breathing world, or do they just want to kill monsters and take their stuff?
   • You might want to think a bit in advance about what you will do if they say they want uber stats and lots of magic items and they still want challenging encounters. This is outside the 5e box, so it will be (possibly a lot) more work for you. You're within your rights to decline that opportunity.
   • If your players will not engage in the what-kind-of-game discussion, then I suggest you find a way to wrap up your campaign gracefully and pursue other options - maybe a new campaign with new ground rules and a new set of players (which might include your current players if they are willing to buy in, but I would definitely find at least a couple of other new players).
4. If you want to expand your thinking about how people derive enjoyment from the game, read this. http://angrydm.com/2014/01/gaming-for-fun-part-1-eight-kinds-of-fun/ (And if you are interested, here is part 2: http://theangrygm.com/gaming-for-fun-part-2-getting-engaged/) At this point, you might not want to go down the rat hole of analyzing yourself and your players thoroughly within this framework; it is enough to realize that different people want different things from the game and that is to be expected and that it is usually satisfactory if everyone (including the DM) gets stuff that lights them up some of the time.

 

[The Scythian]

What can I do? I love d&d and building campaigns and want to create a fun campaign that players will be able to enjoy as much as I enjoyed playing d&d but I feel miserable. It looks like there are a lot of experienced players/dungeon masters here so I was hoping some of you might know what I could do.

Reading through your thread, I wouldn't be surprised if the player running the cleric has legitimate mental issues. Like Harzel says above, you may not be able to meaningfully address those issues.

I think you should ditch the campaign and put your feelers out for other players who will respect you, your time, and your hard work.

 

[ClaytonCross]

I remember one session, I told a player they couldn't "see" as a bat because they had been deafened (a fellow player set off a thunder clap right next to the bat because they forgot thunder is loud) and they spent an hour arguing with me over how I must be wrong because they wanted to pull off a cool maneuver as a bat that would allow them to get around a darkness spell.

So this is a little off the point of the topic but it was bothering me. Don't take it too seriously. I just want to be sure that the bat was blind because it was deafened in magical darkness, right? Because bats actually have excellent eye site even at night. They don't have dark vision in D&D (thought they should) but that doesn't matter if they are in magical darkness. Just a question I had...

 

[jasper]

The most important, and perhaps the hardest, thing you're gonna need to learn to do is:

Being able to say NO.

..and stand by your decision.

Without being able to do this they will consistently be able to drag you into a fight. When you can say NO, and stand by it, you can demonstrate there is no fight to be had. This can be applied to a rules calling and also extended to, 'If you want this game to continue, take a breath, calm down and speak to me as you would wish to be spoken to.' Let them rage. Let them get all worked up. Let them huff and puff. Let them use all their energy. And when they're done? When they're exhausted themselves?

Say NO.

Keep calm. Stay cool. Remain firm.*

If they can't handle you saying no - to their characters, to their decisions, to their behaviours etc -then invite them to DM themselves. And personally, I'd leave them to it.

Life is too short to waste on petty conflicts. If you can, move on. We'll all be deadin the end anyhoo!

Good luck!


*..this also works for training dogs. Honestly, there's a lot of overlap. Terrifying. And true!

bow wow bow wow. Pees on goblins notes, and buries his best mini in the garden.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

So this is a little off the point of the topic but it was bothering me. Don't take it too seriously. I just want to be sure that the bat was blind because it was deafened in magical darkness, right? Because bats actually have excellent eye site even at night. They don't have dark vision in D&D (thought they should) but that doesn't matter if they are in magical darkness. Just a question I had...

Really, it doesn't matter if (some) actual bats have excellent night vision. The DM said the thunderclap blinded the echo location of the bat and it was dark, probably assuming the bat then couldn't see because they're not an expert chiropterologist. That's fine. If the player wants to enlighten the DM as to the excellent night vision quality possessed by most bats, they should free to do so.

Then the DM can then say, "Oh, cool, so the bat can see a bit." Or, "It's in magical darkness, so no, it can't see". Or, "Well, the effect of the thunderclap scrambled all the bat's positional senses." Or whatever they think is right for the game. At that point an hour-long argument is pointless and any player who persists in that is a disruption that the DM should deal with.

 

[Ahriri]

So this is a little off the point of the topic but it was bothering me. Don't take it too seriously. I just want to be sure that the bat was blind because it was deafened in magical darkness, right? Because bats actually have excellent eye site even at night. They don't have dark vision in D&D (thought they should) but that doesn't matter if they are in magical darkness. Just a question I had...

Yes, they were in magical darkness. I admit the situation was pretty strange which was why the argument broke out in the first place. If I remember correctly (just woke up so I might be remembering the bat stats wrong), the bat has blind sight which is how it can "see" in magical darkness. However, this blind sight is derived from it's echolocation and not it's normal eye sight which was why I made the call that being deafened would remove the ability to see in magical darkness.

Her argument never brought up that bat's have pretty good eyesight. If it was regular darkness and she had brought that up, I would have conceded right away and thanked her for telling me this cool fact. What she did was pull out a book and repeat over and over again "but the book says bats have blindsight!".

The call itself may have been debatable but my main issue with the situation was the cleric throwing a fit and arguing about it for way longer than necessary. Especially considering how it wasn't that big of a deal. The players were fighting a single mediocre enemy in magical darkness and no one could see so everyone was attacking with disadvantage. The fight would've been over in a few turns anyway since the enemy had a low AC so the player's would usually hit even with disadvantage.

 

[jasper]

Thanks Ahriri I now have a new stereotype
Crying Cleric, this player will whine for a long time over the fact their pc took 1or 2 extra hit points damage than the book allows. The chaotic version will whine and argue longer than the time it would take for the combat and time to drink a potion of healing.

 

[Gardens & Goblins]

..and buries his best mini in the garden.

..locks door. Stay there young dogling until morning!

 

[ClaytonCross]

Yes, they were in magical darkness. I admit the situation was pretty strange which was why the argument broke out in the first place. If I remember correctly (just woke up so I might be remembering the bat stats wrong), the bat has blind sight which is how it can "see" in magical darkness. However, this blind sight is derived from it's echolocation and not it's normal eye sight which was why I made the call that being deafened would remove the ability to see in magical darkness.

Her argument never brought up that bat's have pretty good eyesight. If it was regular darkness and she had brought that up, I would have conceded right away and thanked her for telling me this cool fact. What she did was pull out a book and repeat over and over again "but the book says bats have blindsight!".

The call itself may have been debatable but my main issue with the situation was the cleric throwing a fit and arguing about it for way longer than necessary. Especially considering how it wasn't that big of a deal. The players were fighting a single mediocre enemy in magical darkness and no one could see so everyone was attacking with disadvantage. The fight would've been over in a few turns anyway since the enemy had a low AC so the player's would usually hit even with disadvantage.

Not judging your call, I just like bats and wanted to point out they have good vision. The magical darkness as you pointed out means they were blind as you described. I really don't get the Clerics argument but that's kind of the point of the post. Some people just want to rule them all.... at level 3.