Help with eye-balling CR

[Jack99]

Hey guys,

I have made 3 monsters that my players will face soon. But after making them I started to wonder what kind of CR they were. Obviously, I have an idea myself, since I made them with a party of a specific level in mind, but I was wondering what you guys thought.

Now, don't mind that they are missing skills and a few stats, because I mostly hand-wave such things. I am not interested in which ways they do not conform to the 3.5 build-a-monster rules. I am however curious about, based on the information below, what CR you would estimate them at.

Cheers, and thank you in advance:

Angel of Emptiness [Large Outsider]
HP: 116 (12 HD; featsower Attack, toughness, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace), Combat Expertise)
AC:29 TAC:9 DR: 10/good
MOV:50 INIT:+5
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP:+22
ATK:+19/+14/+9 mwk large heavy mace 2d6+9 (+stun)
SV:+14/+13/+12
SPC: Permanent Antimagic Field 15' radius, Anyone hit twice in a round by the Angel must save or be stunned for 1d6 rounds (Fortitude DC22).


Angel of Retribution [Large Outsider]
HP: 104 (12 HD; featsower Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical, Combat Reflexes, Iron will)
AC:24 TAC:14 DR: 10/adamantine
MOV:50 INIT:+5
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP:+22
ATK:+21/+16/+11 large scimitar +3 1d8+12 (15-20/x2)
SV:+14/+13/+15
SPC: Counterstrike against any melee attack against it, from within it's thread range


Angel of Death [Large Incorporeal Outsider]
HP:80 (12 HD; feats:Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Quicken Spell-like Ability (Gaze), Ability Focus (Gaze))
AC:20 TAC:20
MOV:50 INIT:+8
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP: -
ATK:+15/+10/+5 (vs touch ac) drain 1d4 random stat per hit, heal 5 hp per drain)
SV:+9/+14/+15
SPC: Gaze: (standard (free 3/d)) fort dc24 or 2d10 damage + 1d4 CHA damage, Frightful Moan: (standard ) Will dc22 or panicked (flee + -2 to all checks) for 2d4 rounds, Malvolence (standard) Will dc22 or be possessed.

 

[moritheil]

Your statblocks look really weird.

I never eyeball CR; to me CR is a starting point rather than an end product (just as levels are a starting point rather than an end product - it's what you do with them that counts.) Nevertheless I will tell you what kind of party I would send a monster up against, which is essentially what you are asking. Note also that I play with people who know a little bit of optimization and thus my estimates might be a little bit low.

Angel of Emptiness [Large Outsider]
HP: 116 (12 HD; featsower Attack, toughness, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace), Combat Expertise)
AC:29 TAC:9 DR: 10/good
MOV:50 INIT:+5
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP:+22
ATK:+19/+14/+9 mwk large heavy mace 2d6+9 (+stun)
SV:+14/+13/+12
SPC: Permanent Antimagic Field 15' radius, Anyone hit twice in a round by the Angel must save or be stunned for 1d6 rounds (Fortitude DC22).

Your SA and SQ are quite brutal on this one. It's the astral deva ability PLUS a mini version of the colossus ability. The DR 10/good is going to be pretty annoying to overcome when all weapons become nonmagical as soon as they get near it and all summoned monsters wink out. The only saving grace here is that there is no ranged attack. From the abilities you're looking at level 14-15ish, but the damage is too low for it to constitute a threat at those levels.

Angel of Retribution [Large Outsider]
HP: 104 (12 HD; featsower Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical, Combat Reflexes, Iron will)
AC:24 TAC:14 DR: 10/adamantine
MOV:50 INIT:+5
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP:+22
ATK:+21/+16/+11 large scimitar +3 1d8+12 (15-20/x2)
SV:+14/+13/+15
SPC: Counterstrike against any melee attack against it, from within it's thread range

A level 10 party could mow this thing down in a couple of rounds, unless you somehow got it within melee range before they could react properly.

Angel of Death [Large Incorporeal Outsider]
HP:80 (12 HD; feats:Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Quicken Spell-like Ability (Gaze), Ability Focus (Gaze))
AC:20 TAC:20
MOV:50 INIT:+8
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP: -
ATK:+15/+10/+5 (vs touch ac) drain 1d4 random stat per hit, heal 5 hp per drain)
SV:+9/+14/+15
SPC: Gaze: (standard (free 3/d)) fort dc24 or 2d10 damage + 1d4 CHA damage, Frightful Moan: (standard ) Will dc22 or panicked (flee + -2 to all checks) for 2d4 rounds, Malvolence (standard) Will dc22 or be possessed.

Not sure why Gaze is a SLA instead of Su; I'm guessing you did that just so you could quicken it, but normally there's no need to do that with a Gaze attack because it's always on without requiring an action at all. This guy is the weakest of the three; a party of level 8s could one-round him if they recognize him as a threat. (If they don't, of course, Malevolence will make for a TPK unless they happen to be packing MCvE.)

 

[Jack99]

Your statblocks look really weird.

Yeah, sorry, it's just how I write them down for myself, with the things that I need. I guess I should have taken the time to convert them, sorry about that.

Not sure why Gaze is a SLA instead of Su; I'm guessing you did that just so you could quicken it, but normally there's no need to do that with a Gaze attack because it's always on without requiring an action at all.

Yes, I should have explained that. Basically it comes down to house-rules. I have two types of gaze attacks, those that work as per RAW, and the weaker kind, presented here, which is an SLA; and thus able to be quickened, but still not active all the time, and still only against one target.

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback. Plan is to use the 3 Angels together. And yes, the Angel of Emptiness is quite nasty, depending on party level.

 

[Arkhandus]

Angel of Death will destroy the party if all three "angels" stick together, within the first angel's antimagic field. Remember, it's incorporeal, so it doesn't have to stay in a separate fighting space from the others, it can occupy some of their spaces. And will be unhittable in the antimagic field, because you need some kind of magic in order to strike an incorporeal creature.

 

[moritheil]

Angel of Death will destroy the party if all three "angels" stick together, within the first angel's antimagic field. Remember, it's incorporeal, so it doesn't have to stay in a separate fighting space from the others, it can occupy some of their spaces. And will be unhittable in the antimagic field, because you need some kind of magic in order to strike an incorporeal creature.

Don't incorporeals disappear in AMFs?

I think that all three together become nastier than they would be individually.

 

[Jack99]

Don't incorporeals disappear in AMFs?

I think that all three together become nastier than they would be individually.

Indeed they do. To both.

I was aiming for about an ECL 15 or so, for the 3 of them, but I am not quite sure, which is why I posted here.

 

[moritheil]

Indeed they do. To both.

I was aiming for about an ECL 15 or so, for the 3 of them, but I am not quite sure, which is why I posted here.

In terms of damage and defense, it's not far off from an EL 15 encounter (since the terrible defense of the last monster is compensated for by the other two running interference.) However, the malevolence ability makes it more of a binary proposition: TPK if the party has low will saves or rolls badly; cakewalk if not.

 

[Slaved]

You could reduce some of their abilities quite a bit and instead give each of them an Aura ability that helps them and their Allies within some distance in a way that makes sense for the Angel.

That would mean that tactics to try to seperate them or concentrate firepower would be very important!

 

[the Jester]

Angel of Emptiness [Large Outsider]
HP: 116 (12 HD; featsower Attack, toughness, Improved Bull Rush, Weapon Focus (Heavy Mace), Combat Expertise)
AC:29 TAC:9 DR: 10/good
MOV:50 INIT:+5
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP:+22
ATK:+19/+14/+9 mwk large heavy mace 2d6+9 (+stun)
SV:+14/+13/+12
SPC: Permanent Antimagic Field 15' radius, Anyone hit twice in a round by the Angel must save or be stunned for 1d6 rounds (Fortitude DC22).

Hmm, this guy I see at about CR 12. (That AC 29 becomes much harder to hit once the pcs lose all their magical bonuses!)

Angel of Retribution [Large Outsider]
HP: 104 (12 HD; featsower Attack, Cleave, Improved Critical, Combat Reflexes, Iron will)
AC:24 TAC:14 DR: 10/adamantine
MOV:50 INIT:+5
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP:+22
ATK:+21/+16/+11 large scimitar +3 1d8+12 (15-20/x2)
SV:+14/+13/+15
SPC: Counterstrike against any melee attack against it, from within it's thread range

This guy's not as tough; I'd eyeball him at about CR 9-10. The Counterstrike ability needs a little more definition imho- f'rex, what if the same person hacks it with his sword three times in one round? Does it get three counterstrikes? Does it have to roll to hit, or is it automatic? Etcetera.

Angel of Death [Large Incorporeal Outsider]
HP:80 (12 HD; feats:Improved Initiative, Dodge, Mobility, Quicken Spell-like Ability (Gaze), Ability Focus (Gaze))
AC:20 TAC:20
MOV:50 INIT:+8
FC:10 RCH:10
BAB:+12 GRP: -
ATK:+15/+10/+5 (vs touch ac) drain 1d4 random stat per hit, heal 5 hp per drain)
SV:+9/+14/+15
SPC: Gaze: (standard (free 3/d)) fort dc24 or 2d10 damage + 1d4 CHA damage, Frightful Moan: (standard ) Will dc22 or panicked (flee + -2 to all checks) for 2d4 rounds, Malvolence (standard) Will dc22 or be possessed.

I give this guy more like a CR 10 or 11. The ability to (potentially) drain all stats is somewhat offset by the fact that it's a random stat that gets drained.

So, estimating high, we have CRs of 12, 10 and 11. This is an EL 14 encounter.

Estimating low, we've got CR 12, 9 and 10; this is an EL 13 encounter.

If you're aiming for EL 15, I'd say that you want to beef the weaker guys up a lil.

 

[Jack99]

This guy's not as tough; I'd eyeball him at about CR 9-10. The Counterstrike ability needs a little more definition imho- f'rex, what if the same person hacks it with his sword three times in one round? Does it get three counterstrikes? Does it have to roll to hit, or is it automatic? Etcetera.

It gets a counterstrike per melee attack against it, so when the monk throws 4 attacks at it, it hacks back 4 times (at highest attack bonus, basically it works like an AoO, if that makes sense)