Help with making a combo work (flame whips and unarmed strikes)

[kerbarian]

I'm trying to figure out how to make a particular combo work, and I'm having some trouble. What I'd like to do is have a sorcerer/monk cast Flame Whips (SC) and be able to use the whips (as secondary attacks) in combination with unarmed strikes. Flame Whips says that "Your forelimbs transform into flaming whips. You gain two melee touch attacks" that deal fire damage. "Attacks with these flaming whips replace any natural attacks you had with those limbs."

WotC customer service says that if the caster originally had natural attacks with its forelimbs, it can use the flame whips just like it could previously use its natural attacks with those limbs. e.g. it can combine them with other natural attacks or manufactured weapon attacks. If the caster didn't have natural attacks with its forelimbs, then the flame whip attacks aren't natural attacks and can't be combined with any other attacks.

What WotC says is significant here because my DM goes with what they say unless it can be shown to disagree with the RAW.

So, first of all, do the RAW provide any clear rules about how the flame whips would interact with other natural or manufactured attacks, or does it come down to interpretation (which, for my game, means the WotC answer)?

If it comes down to the WotC interpretation, then how can a sorcerer/monk get claw or slam attacks without using anything from the Alter Self/Polymorph chain of spells (which aren't allowed in this game)? Pretty much any 3.5 WotC source is allowed.

Ideally it would be something permanent (e.g. an item or feat) or long-duration, so that it wouldn't require in-combat buffing.

 

[javcs]

Well, for a slam attack, you could play as a warforged .. they've got slams.

Claws are available from most of the humanoid(reptilian) races.

Plus, IIRC, a monk's unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Gots to love supplements that don't pay attention..

I don't have the Spell Compendium, but if I read you post right, the Flame Whips spell grants to the character two "natural" attacks that either supplement your current "natural" attacks or replace them, depending on where those attacks come from.

Humans do not have natural attacks, therefore this spell would grant your character a "natural" attack sequence of whip/whip at full BAB.

The way this integrates with unarmed strikes and other weapons is.. well, twisted.
Either you use the natural attack sequence or you use your iterative attacks. The monk abilities like flurry of blow do not apply to natural attack sequences..

So, your Flaming Whip Monk can either:
Use the spells 2 touch attacks as a natural attack sequence
or
fight unarmed/armed with the iterative attack sequence

Depending on how the spell reads you may be able to use the whips as a normal weapon in the iterative sequence. If it does, the you can use whatever combination of flaming whips and unarmed strikes that you want. However... flaming whips are not monk weapons so you would not be able to use Flurry of Blows.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

Plus, IIRC, a monk's unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons.

This is only for the purposes of enhancing magic... so you can 'Magic Fang' a monk's fists...
Altho this is also one of the most argued about 'features' of 3.x

 

[RigaMortus2]

From the way I read it, you only get the two attacks regardless. It is a spell, so you have to follow the spell description. Since the description spells out that you get 2 melee touch attacks. Had it simply been worded that your limbs turn into flaming whips that are considered melee touch attacks when you attack with them, then you could use iterative attacks, TWF, and the like.

 

[Artoomis]

Hmmm...

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Does this spell "enhance or improve" natural weapons? Answer that and you have your answer, I think.

 

[kerbarian]

Well, for a slam attack, you could play as a warforged .. they've got slams.

Claws are available from most of the humanoid(reptilian) races.

Plus, IIRC, a monk's unarmed strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons.

Hmm... warforged have a single slam attack, but they make really bad sorcerers. I couldn't find any of the humanoid(reptilian) races that both had claw attacks and LA +0 -- are there any?

 

[kerbarian]

Hmmm...

"A monk’s unarmed strike is treated both as a manufactured weapon and a natural weapon for the purpose of spells and effects that enhance or improve either manufactured weapons or natural weapons."

Does this spell "enhance or improve" natural weapons? Answer that and you have your answer, I think.

Yeah, that's an interesting point. Perhaps the flame whips replace the monk's unarmed strike completely. I'm thinking not, though. While the monk's unarmed strike counts as a natural weapon, that doesn't actually grant the monk any natural attacks, and the spell explicitly replaces natural attacks.

I'm not actually playing a monk or planning to play one in the forseeable future, but I liked this character concept, and so I wanted to work out all the details of what I could do with it. It's amazing how many places the rules are fuzzy with respect to monk attacks.

 

[SorvahrSpahr]

I couldn't find any of the humanoid(reptilian) races that both had claw attacks and LA +0 -- are there any?

kobolds are the answer