D&D 3E/3.5 Help with my Drow Swashbuckler (3.5)

[Herobizkit]

Just to clarify, I generally suggest to players to build characters as front-loaded as possible; my assumption is that a player will generally stop playing their character somewhere between 12-15. Waiting 15 levels for one character ability is madness, especially in the OP's case where he is being forced to play a specific class (and an arguably sub-par one at that - but hey, he's essentially a fighter with some perks but without the Feats).

Also, most of my characters (even warriors) are generally medium and less armored. If the OP goes the route of using a spiked chain, he can always hang back from melee and still contribute. As I said earlier, it doesn't matter what your AC is if you're not in melee.

 

[pawsplay]

Contrary to what has been said above, I think Swashbucker/Duelist can work just fine, and it plays pretty well to the drow's strengths (which is important at +2 LA). However, you've been straightjacketed into some choices which will make this hard to work.

Attacking defensively is a good tactic (you'll get +2 AC, +1 AC more for your Tumbling skill) but only for tanking. You'll never kill anything that way. If your friends have good firepower, you're golden, but otherwise, or if the monsters get wise to your weak offense, you will have some problems. Usually, the way to deal with penalties like this is with multiple attacks, but without dual-wielding and with being married to the duelist's single weapon attack, you won't get any. Therefore, you will need to plan on alternating between attacking defensively (in toe to toe combat) and a concerted attack (when it's time to deal damage).

As far as defense, for under 3000k you can get a mithril shirt and a +1 buckler. Carry and use the buckler until you are at least a 3rd level duelist. In the long term, you will want to split your defenses between natural armor (amulet), deflection (ring), Intelligence (headband), and Dexterity (gloves), which is cheaper than sinking everything into any one item.

For offense... try to get and use haste as much as possible. Avoid overspecialized weapons. A simple +2 rapier and a potion of haste is much stronger, by the numbers, than flaming weapons and brilliant energy and so forth. Agianst opponents who can be hurt by precise strike, bonuses to hit are your priority anyway.

Oh... and make your rapier cold iron, it cost a handful of gp and has no drawbacks. Later on, you can decide between oil of GMW versus trading out cold iron for a magical weapon.

 

[Dandu]

What does Duelist get that makes you think it will work "just fine"?

 

[pawsplay]

What does Duelist get that makes you think it will work "just fine"?

Good BAB, fairly reliable extra damage at higher levels. They get Int to AC, which compensates somewhat for the lack of a shield (eventually, a force shield, which can be activated or deactivated as a free action, can be used to gain a shield bonus except during an actual attack). The important thing to realize is that you will probably not ditch your armor and shield immediately upon entering the class; if you wait until 2nd or 3rd level, when you get more than +1 to AC from your Int, and wear bracers, you will have a better AC. Although not gaining precise strike against undead can be a liability, wearing bracers and having Int and Dex both add to AC is a strength against incorporeal touches.

A character who is swashbuckler 6/duelist 5 has +11/+6/+1 on attacks and deals at least +1d6 against most opponents most of the time. AC could easily be 30+.

 

[Dandu]

Pitiful abilities.

 

[pawsplay]

Pitiful abilities.

A swashbuckler/duelist can take on appropriate CR monsters, with the right approach, and that's what's important. The OP asked for help. Criticizing the GM isn't what I would consider helpful.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Pawsplay, can you explain why:

1) Duelist would even be much better than straight Swashbuckler? From what I can tell, the only reasons are int to AC, which costs you armor (even simple chain shirt means you're going to eventually need +9 int to make up for the loss, more if we start comparing to mithral breastplate) and is all dodge bonus for a build that has no Uncanny Dodge; the few d6 bonus damage, which forces you to give up TWF and adding your int to damage on twice as many attacks and thus isn't much of an improvement; and adding class level to AC at Duelist 7+. Now, the latter ability IS really sweet. Probably the only reason the class is even worth thinking about. But...you won't be getting that until level 14 (ECL 16 for the Drow). And until then, you're really subpar, especially on defense, giving up armor AND shield.

2) You would reccommend Duelist over Dervish? Aside from slightly easier requirements, Dervish does almost everything Duelist does, and then a whole crapload more to boot.

EDIT: Forgot about using bracers of armor, I guess that does mitigate things a bit.

 

[pawsplay]

I would not go straight swashbuckler because they don't get anything particularly great at high levels. At 3rd level, they get Insightful Strike, which means our drow will eventually get Int to both AC and damage.

A swashbuckler 6/duelist 3 is a 9th level character (ECL 11 as a drow), which means they are actually a step ahead of the game in the AC department. Using bracers means they are not faced with maximum Dex to AC, and with a drow swashbuckler, I am confident Dex can get high enough to make that worthwhile. Likewise, Int to AC means an essentially uncapped second source of defense (up to +10 AC if you could get Int to 30 somehow). Stack that up against a ghost touch mithral breastplate and tell me what you think.

There is also nothing stopping this character, at very high levels, from grabbing TWF as one feat and taking -2/-2 on their attacks using a light second weapon. At duelist 7th, they could be attacking defensively at +7 AC on top of +3 AC, at -6 to hit, with haste, for a total of +7/+7/+7/+2/-1, plus Dex bonuses, feats, enchancement bonuses, etc. Even going for a natural 20s, that could be a hit every other round.

In fact, there is nothing stopping you from investing in Power Attack, fighting defensively, and going all power attack all the time... you would only hit on a natural 20, but you could roll five dice a round, and when you hit, it would be 1d6+Int bonus + Str bonus + enhancement bonus + extra damage +13 (from PA), and you could forgo TWF to add precise strike.

 

[Dandu]

I would not go straight swashbuckler because they don't get anything particularly great at high levels. At 3rd level, they get Insightful Strike, which means our drow will eventually get Int to both AC and damage.

A swashbuckler 6/duelist 3 is a 9th level character (ECL 11 as a drow), which means they are actually a step ahead of the game in the AC department. Using bracers means they are not faced with maximum Dex to AC, and with a drow swashbuckler, I am confident Dex can get high enough to make that worthwhile. Likewise, Int to AC means an essentially uncapped second source of defense (up to +10 AC if you could get Int to 30 somehow). Stack that up against a ghost touch mithral breastplate and tell me what you think.

There is also nothing stopping this character, at very high levels, from grabbing TWF as one feat and taking -2/-2 on their attacks using a light second weapon. At duelist 7th, they could be attacking defensively at +7 AC on top of +3 AC, at -6 to hit, with haste, for a total of +7/+7/+7/+2/-1, plus Dex bonuses, feats, enchancement bonuses, etc. Even going for a natural 20s, that could be a hit every other round.

In fact, there is nothing stopping you from investing in Power Attack, fighting defensively, and going all power attack all the time... you would only hit on a natural 20, but you could roll five dice a round, and when you hit, it would be 1d6+Int bonus + Str bonus + enhancement bonus + extra damage +13 (from PA), and you could forgo TWF to add precise strike.

And I must laugh. There is so much wrong here it's not even funny.

First, you can't power attack for more than your BAB, yet you have 13 extra damage from power attack for a character with 9 BAB.

Second, making a flurry of attacks and hoping for a 20 to hit is inferior to hitting consistently, ie, more than 5% of the time. Come on, are you listening to yourself here? "That could be a hit every other round?" Those are pretty low standards to aspire to. You don't even deal that much damage per hit either.

Third, your Swashbucler6/Duelist3 has +3 to AC from Int. This is not impressive at level 9. At all.

Four, your character now has to pump Dex, Int, and Con, possibly Str as well in order to have AC, HP, and deal damage. This seems like a poor idea.

Five, you have forgotten to mention that Bracers of Armor only give +8 armor (while regular armor can give more AC), can't be enchanted with special abilities, and are incredibly expensive.

I don't think your claims about the Duelist prestige class hold up when people start crunching numbers. You'll excuse me if I go along with those who recommend Dervish.

If you want to start proving your position, make a character or something and give him actual equipment and we'll see what AC he has, and whether that's enough for fighting CR appropriate encounters.

 

[pawsplay]

A Swashbuckler 6/Duelist 7 has a BAB of +13.

As for the dervish... rapiers aren't slashing weapons.