Help with Psionics

[Thanee]

An alternative is to make it a free +level to the dispel check, with a cap of +10 just like the Dispel Magic spell. The augmentation would then be 6 PP to raise this cap by 10, or possibly 3 PP to raise it by 5 (augmentable multiple times).

Yep, though in that case it should not augment at all, but rather be two different powers, one that scales to 10 and one that scales to 20, like Metamorphosis is done (which scales instead of augment).

Altho, I'd rather see every power with augmentation and not a single one with scaling, as scaling is just not how psionics work. Even Metamorphosis would be fine with augmentation and no cap, I think, merging the lesser and greater version into one.

The big problem of Dispel Psionics is, that it both scales and augments.
Sure, the augmentation, that just increases the cap, is not unreasonable, but it just doesn't look right with the rest of the system.

Psionics don't scale, but can be augmented and have no cap, also they include the greater versions of the same "spell". That's how it should be done for them all, IMHO. At least I don't see a reason, why there need to be exceptions.

It's also absolutely not acceptable, that Dispel Psionics is in any way superior to Dispel Magic IMHO, since otherwise Psions would be better at dispelling magic, than Wizards under the standard transparency rules (w/o transparency this is of course irrelevant).

Even a two power scaling version would be more powerful, as it could be manifested a lot more times per day.

Therefore I think it should be my version, because that is how it should work in the system, with the inherent advantages (flexibility, no cap) and disadvantages (augmentation cost).

But that's just my opinion, of course.

Note that schism is a lot weaker than 3.0 Haste. It (a) only allows purely mental actions, and (b) only allows those as if you were 6 levels lower. A more fitting arcane substitute would be a spell that allowed you to cast one more spell per round, but it couldn't be of the three highest spell levels available to you, and you'd be treated as 6 levels lower for determining its effects. So, if at 7th level you'd be able to cast an additional 1d4+1 magic missile per round, or an additional 10d6 fireball even at 16th level, that's OK with me.

Yeah, that would be better, just allow a spell of spell level = caster level / 3 or something like that.

But in fact, I don't think both are a good idea, personally. Extra spells (or powers) per round should not come that easy. Quicken is more than enough.

As for Quicken, I do allow spontaneous casters to use it, ...

As I said, if Psions get it, there is no reason to not allow Sorcerers to get it, too.

Or otherwise, if Sorcerers do not get it, there is no reason why Psions should.

Both works, I guess, just not the current version, which is simply inconsistent.

...and note that the psionic version is more limited than the magic version due to the way psionics work with PPs. First, the power in question isn't only limited in level like with the magic version. You also get a weaker effect, since the 6 PP you spend to Quicken count toward the maximum PP allowed for the power. The 9th level wizard might be able to use Quicken to cast an extra Magic Missile, but that Magic Missile will have the full effect of 9 caster levels behind it. The 9th level psion uses Quicken to get an extra Energy Missile, but that Energy Missile is as if cast by a 3rd level caster. Second, it basically requires a second feat in order to use it more than once per fight. Taking a full-round action during combat in order to be able to later manifest a relatively weak power as a free action isn't exactly effective.

Well, that's the nature of the system, that it does not scale, partially that is alleviated by having all metapsionics be cheaper by a full power level (if applicable). And there are enough powers that are still highly effective at full level minus six.

A spell four levels lower than your maximum is also a lot weaker than your maximum level, i.e. Magic Missile (good spell at 9th level still, sure) versus Firebrand (a lot better spell), both top ranking spells of their respective level.

Just as one example.

Note that it doesn't so much circumvent the cost as change it - it does cost 3 PP to activate Hustle, after all (5 PP for an egoist, but those aren't the ones where it's problematic really).

True, true.

It's mostly the "extra action" stuff that bugs me there, since it has been removed from 3.5 pretty much in all instances (only one I know of is the Choker (Su)).

Doesn't sit right to put that stuff back in, as it has been removed for a reason.

Bye
Thanee

 

[xazil]

... Note that it doesn't so much circumvent the cost as change it - it does cost 3 PP to activate Hustle, after all (5 PP for an egoist, but those aren't the ones where it's problematic really).

Actually it costs a bit more than just 3pp for Hustle and the Psionic Meditation feat to regain Psionic Focus.

In combat you often take damage so you need to make a concentration check to manifest Hustle. Then Psionic Meditation only reduces the time for regaining focus to a move action, it doesn't stop regaining Focus provoking an AoO. Of course if you take damage then you have the hustle problem.

This means that generally the combination breaks down quickly in a real combat. Not good for something to be used in the second or later rounds.

 

[Staffan]

Well, that's the nature of the system, that it does not scale, partially that is alleviated by having all metapsionics be cheaper by a full power level (if applicable). And there are enough powers that are still highly effective at full level minus six.

Actually, I think the reduction in level/PP cost for metapsionic feats compared to metamagic is paid for by costing you psionic focus instead. Focus is a larger cost in the short term (because it means you're likely to only get one off in a fight unless you're specialized in regaining focus), but a smaller cost in the long term (because once out of the fight, you'll get the focus back in two minutes or less.

A spell four levels lower than your maximum is also a lot weaker than your maximum level, i.e. Magic Missile (good spell at 9th level still, sure) versus Firebrand (a lot better spell), both top ranking spells of their respective level.

But the psion pays for it both with a drop in level (which admittedly mostly means a less convenient area) and in effective level.

 

[Staffan]

Actually it costs a bit more than just 3pp for Hustle and the Psionic Meditation feat to regain Psionic Focus.

In combat you often take damage so you need to make a concentration check to manifest Hustle. Then Psionic Meditation only reduces the time for regaining focus to a move action, it doesn't stop regaining Focus provoking an AoO. Of course if you take damage then you have the hustle problem.

This means that generally the combination breaks down quickly in a real combat. Not good for something to be used in the second or later rounds.

Though if you can reliably regain psionic focus (DC 20), you can also reliably use the "use skill that normally provokes AoO without doing so" option for concentration, DC 15. Though it means you'll be rolling three Concentration checks for regaining focus: defensive manifesting DC 17 for manifesting hustle, defensive skill-use DC 15, and regaining focus DC 20.

 

[Thanee]

But the psion pays for it both with a drop in level (which admittedly mostly means a less convenient area) and in effective level.

Yeah, which is counteracted by the inherent advantages of psionics, it's just how the system works.

And besides, wizards also have an additional cost, that is the cap.
It doesn't apply here so much, since the four spell level difference is roughly in the area, where the cap is maxed out, but it has an impact in other situations instead.

Anyways...

Without Quicken it's the same difference, so with Quicken it should also be the same.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Evilhalfling]

Sigh - is it my imagination or have we talked this same argument to death on every psionic thread ?

Build for a Nomad Psion
Str 11, Dx 14, Con 14, In 17, Ws 13, Chr10
Feats Up the Walls, PsiBody, Psi Crystal, Speed of Thought, Expanded Knowledge - Energy Missle
Skills - Concentration 10, Tumble (cross class) 6

1st - Vigor, Dissipating touch, Telempathic Projection, Skate, Inertial Armor
2nd - Sustenance, Dimension Swap, Recall Pain, Energy Missle
....Knock/Identify depending on party
3rd - Dispel Psionics, Body Adjust (if low on healing), or Energy Wall

And to molify Thannee - Dispel Psionics and Energy Missle use errata
and Energy missle is HR to 1 target Augment 1psp +2 targets (max 5 within 15')

Psp -33
This character is not getting much use out of being a nomad but is heading for fly (4th lvl) and Teleport(5th)