Help with Sorcerer build
Faerl'Elghinn
First Post
Metamind?!?
I find it funny that your DM will allow the Metamind and not the Abjurant Champion--apparently he/she is not filtering out PRCs based on power level. Although the Abjurant Champion is a fairly powerful class, a Kineticist 5/Metamind 10 is capable of dealing an absurd amount of damage with a single power. While they do trade manifester levels for their free manifestation ability, a 10th-level manifester (with Overchannel) is capable of augmenting energy current for 8d6 (+4 save DC = 19 + int mod) while also applying Maximize Power for a total of (17x6) 102 points of damage to a single enemy and half that amount to a second each round for 1 round/level. With either fire or cold, that damage becomes a disgusting 119 points of damage at 15th level... Granted, this option can only be used once per day, but the Metamind can also freely manifest 3rd- and 4th-level powers once per day each and 1st- and 2nd-level powers thrice per day each in addition to the powers he or she can manifest normally.
Given the choices, I would forego the whole Sorcerer thing and play either a straight Psion or a Psion/Metamind without question. IMO, most Psions are strictly more powerful than arcane casters. In fact, when I showed the Expanded Psionics Handbook to my playgroup, the general consensus was that--while very cool--everything but the Soulknife was ridiculously overpowered when put into the wrong hands (i.e., those of anyone in our playgroup). The ability to scale 1st-level powers to rival 9th-level powers in effectiveness just seems somehow inherently bah-roken...
I find it funny that your DM will allow the Metamind and not the Abjurant Champion--apparently he/she is not filtering out PRCs based on power level. Although the Abjurant Champion is a fairly powerful class, a Kineticist 5/Metamind 10 is capable of dealing an absurd amount of damage with a single power. While they do trade manifester levels for their free manifestation ability, a 10th-level manifester (with Overchannel) is capable of augmenting energy current for 8d6 (+4 save DC = 19 + int mod) while also applying Maximize Power for a total of (17x6) 102 points of damage to a single enemy and half that amount to a second each round for 1 round/level. With either fire or cold, that damage becomes a disgusting 119 points of damage at 15th level... Granted, this option can only be used once per day, but the Metamind can also freely manifest 3rd- and 4th-level powers once per day each and 1st- and 2nd-level powers thrice per day each in addition to the powers he or she can manifest normally.
Given the choices, I would forego the whole Sorcerer thing and play either a straight Psion or a Psion/Metamind without question. IMO, most Psions are strictly more powerful than arcane casters. In fact, when I showed the Expanded Psionics Handbook to my playgroup, the general consensus was that--while very cool--everything but the Soulknife was ridiculously overpowered when put into the wrong hands (i.e., those of anyone in our playgroup). The ability to scale 1st-level powers to rival 9th-level powers in effectiveness just seems somehow inherently bah-roken...
Jack Simth
First Post
Actually, the Metamind is surprisingly balanced up until Font of Power.Faerl'Elghinn said:
As are Psions in general.
Sure, a group of three+ Psions with Affinity Field, Bestow Power, and Synchronicity can break the game (Affinity Field + Quickened Synchronicity = everyone suddenly has a readied action; Affinity Field guy simply re-manifests Synchronicity immediately; before he does that, however, two of the others Manifest Bestow Power - for a net total gain of power points; they keep this up - all in the same round, mind, on the same initiative count, so the Affinity Field doesn't expire - when they're full, they do some blasting, then continue to regen power points - still all on the same initiative count on the same round - blast when they're full again, and so on, until the opponent is very, very dead. Then they do things like True Metabolism and Body Adjustment to heal up. With their infinite power points.
For the most part, though, sure - they can augment that Mind Thrust up to the point where it's effectively a 9th level spell. But it's still a 1st level power, single target, mind-affecting, will negates. A lesser globe of invulnerability will stop it cold. So will Mind Blank. And it costs the Psion the equivalent of a 9th level spell slot to do that.
Take a 10th level Psion vs. a 10th level Sorcerer.
Ignoring bonus power points and bonus spell slots, the Sorcerer can:
Cast 3 Empowered Fireballs for (effectively) 45d6 damage (3 5th level slots).
Cast 5 Empowered Scorching Scorching Rays for (effectively) 60d6 damage (5 4th level slots)
Cast 6 fireballs for 60d6 damage.
Cast 6 Scorching Rays for 48d6 damage.
Cast 6 Magic Missiles for (effectively) 30d6 damage.
Cast 6 Acid Splashes for (effectively) 3d6 damage.
Then the Sorcerer is out of non-bonus spell slots, after having dealt what amounts to roughly 246d6 damage.
The 10th level Psion has 88 power points, for 10 Empowered Energy balls each dealing (effectively) 12d6 damage (96d6 total), and an Empowered energy bolt for (effectively) 9d6 damage. Then the Psion is dry, after having put out the equivalent of 107d6.
Over the course of an endurance run, which is better: The Sorcerer's 246d6 equivalent, or the Psion's 107d6 equivalent (you can run similar numbers for the Wizard, without much difficulty; and the Wizard will usually come out ahead)?
Sure, the Psion has a slightly better save DC. And the Psion has easier access to Quicken. And the Psion gets bonus feats.
However, for the Psion to keep up with the Sorcerer's metamagic rate, he has to spend an extra feat (Psionic Meditation) to get his Focus back as a move action. The Psion has to spend a feat to get a Psicrystal (equivalent of a familiar, but without the inherent skills - a Hawk familiar, for example, is available at 1st, and probably has a better Spot check than anyone in the party. A Bat familiar, again available at first, has blindsense and probably has a better Listen check than anyone in the party; a Psicrystal... umm... can climb and is immune to mind-affecting effects) and is expected to have Psicrystal Containment (for one extra metapsionic effect in the first round of battle). Oh, and the Sorcerer can stack metamagic effects when needed - if the 14th level Sorcerer needs to cast an Empowered, Maximized, Enlarged Magic Missle, he can, no problem, and it still does it's 5*(1d4+1) damage. If the Psion-14 needs to manifest an Empowered, Maximized, Enlarged Energy Ray, he's out of luck.
However, the Psion has some advantages in terms of access (e.g., gets 2nd level powers at 3rd, while the Sorcerer needs to wait until 4th) and flexibility (e.g., Animal Affinity is a single power that works for all stats, and is augmentable to apply to more than one stat at a time; the Sorcerer needs to buy the equivalent seperately). The Sorcerer, on the other hand, gets free scaling - At 10th, a 10d6 Fireball costs the Sorcerer a 3rd level spell slot. A Psion manifesting Energy Ball for 10d6 costs the Psion the equivalent of a 5.5th level spell slot.
And the Psion can go "nova" a little better than the Sorcerer can.
But in the DMG suggested four encounters per day, the Psion does really well for the first one or two. But the Psion is likely either conserving for the first couple (and thus not doing so well) or is exhausted for the last couple (and thus not doing so well). The Sorcerer? He can go all day.
I was asking the DM about PrCs for sorcerer and he has realised he forgot to include Warmage in the list (from a Dragonlance book I think). Looking at it I am going to work towards that as it doesn't penalise spell progression and there's a free metamagic feat along the way.
Thanks everybody
Thanks everybody
VonRichthofen
First Post
donremus said:
Note that the Dragonlance War Mage has been greatly nerfed. It was the most powerful arcane PrC around. Now it is only very, very powerful.
5 levels to get:
+3 untyped bonus damage per die of damage (!!!)
Cha bonus to defelection AC for 3 allies
2 Metamagic feats of choice
It was simply insane.
Go for Dalamar's Lighning Lance. An empowered version of this spell will do:
13d6+39 (untyped, no save) and 45d6+135 (electricity, Fort. for half)
Even if the target makes all the saves, it is still in for some 200 points of damage - from a 6th level spell slot! It is one of the most blatantly overpowered combos available, without any questionable metamagic feats/rules/lenient DMs.
Hint: You should boost your Con for the erratum version!
DragonLancer
Adventurer
VonRichthofen said:
It's not overpowered too much though. It's a good choice for a sorcerer looking to go full combat mage.
VonRichthofen
First Post
Thanee said:Riiight... totally not questionable +3 untyped bonus damage per die.
Bye
Thanee
Beg your pardon ?
Not questionable refered to the simple fact that his DM allows this PrC.
I thought I had made it quite clear that this PrC was grossly overpowered from my point of view and that the erratum did only make it a "very powerful PrC".
As a DM, I would MAYBE allow this in a Dragonlance campaign for some very dedicated & nasty black battle mage (black robe wizard, DLCS version - paying for this with the loss of Abjuration, Transmutation & Illusion) - an nowhere else.
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