Help with War Hulk build ...

[Jeff Wilder]

Right now I am a Half-Ogre Fighter 2. Stats are Str 22, Dex 12, Con 18, Int 5, Wis 9, Cha 11. I've got Power Attack, Cleave, and Improved Bullrush. I have 2 ranks in Intimidate (for a +2) and 3 ranks in Jump (for a +8). Because the Half-Ogre LA of +2 is kinda severe, I don't mind using a little cheese to hold my own.

What I'd like to do is concentrate on four things: first, getting a couple of levels of barbarian; second, getting Spring Attack; third, getting Leap Attack; and fourth, going the path of the War Hulk. I'm not very proficient in mapping characters ahead of time for optimization, so any help is appreciated. I'm not even sure these things I'm trying to do will work well together.

As I see it:

3rd/ECL 5 -- Barbarian 1. Gets me Rage (Whirling Frenzy) and Fast Movement. Fast Movement, besides being overall handy, synergizes well with Jumping and Spring Attack. I'm not sure of a feat here. I like Combat Reflexes and Improved Grapple, but neither is a particularly optimized choice. Any suggestions? Rank 4 in Jump.

4th/ECL 6 -- Barbarian 2. Gets me Uncanny Dodge, which I want and need. Ability increase will be +1 to Dex that I need for Dodge. Rank 5 in Jump.

5th/ECL 7 -- Fighter 3. Bupkus. Rank 6 in Jump.

6th/ECL 8 -- Fighter 4. Dodge, Mobility, Rank 7 in Jump.

7th/ECL 9 -- Fighter 5. Bupkus. Rank 8 in Jump.

8th/ECL 10 -- Fighter 6. Leap Attack.

9th/ECL 11 -- War Hulk 1. Spring Attack.

Comments?

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Bump?

 

[VonRichthofen]

You are aware of the fact that Spring Attack and Leap Attack can't be combined, aren't you?

You'll need Improved Unarmed Strike to take Improved Grapple.

Apart from that, it's a awesomely lame PrC, good for melee, nothing else. Very boring at that, too.

Ranged casters will laugh themselves silly. Ranged combat will be great fun with your puny +9 attack bonus at level 20.

Every Will save will screw you, roleplaying is not an issue at all, skill use is basically shut down - a very sad concept, only worth it for one-shot opponents. I could go on....

 

[Machiavelli]

Ya know, I've always wanted to play around with a War Hulk. My ideas:

Whirling Frenzy has the AC boost (which I think is totally ridiculous from a balance perspective, but for this character it will be important) or otherwise I would tell you that you NEED the extra HP from a regular rage. After all, even with the +2 AC from Frenzy shrugging a few attacks off, you're still going to have a lousy AC and be the center of the enemies' attention (you're by far the largest member of your party, after all). Overall, Frenzy is *possibly* a good choice.

I can see why you want Spring Attack, but you can't use it and still get your extra attack from Frenzy. Yes, it would be good to place yourself on the battlefield where you can make use of Cleave, but without ranks in Tumble, you'll be drawing AoO's, and many will hit you with your AC as low as it is. I wouldn't worry about Dodge and Spring Attack, just scrap them. You can take other, more useful feats. For instance: Improved Sunder and Combat Brute [CW, 110]. Since you plan to charge your opponents anyway, with Leap Attack, then Combat Brute will let you get the same effects as Leap Attack on the round immediately after. It also allows you to get a bonus to attack and damage rolls equal to how many squares you bull rushed somebody the round before, and it lets you use Cleave when sundering a weapon or shield. It sounds like it's perfect for this character you want. It's available at BAB +6.

Take your Jump ranks sooner; ignore Intimidate. You'll get to the Leap Attack feat faster that way.

Combat reflexes might be useful, maybe. You DO have that awesome reach, which you could extend with an actual reach weapon. The trouble is, your enemies may avoid drawing AoO's, so having 1 extra per round (you only have +1 Dex) may not be useful. Powerful Charge [MiniHB] would give you +2d6 damage on your charges, or Blood Spiked Charger [PHBII, 92] could be absolutely incredible for a War Hulk.


Edit: The Baron has a good point. You should understand that a War Hulk is only useful for dishing out damage, not for anything resembling role playing. With that Intelligence score of 5, anything more eloquent than "Me stompy. Tiny man die now." is stretching the limit of this character's mental capacity. He'll need to be the lap dog of some other character, because he won't have the ability to interact with civilization by his own initiative, without damaging something or killing someone.
The War Hulk class offers not much more than a whole mess of strength. The Will saves are rather pathetic, so your best bet is to have this character's "handler" be a spentaneous spellcaster to counterspell mind-influencing enemy spells.

You may have a whole lot of fun on the battle mat with this guy, assuming you face mobs of melee enemies, but in every non-combat situation, he will be a liability. You just have to be sure that's okay for the campaign you're playing.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

You are aware of the fact that Spring Attack and Leap Attack can't be combined, aren't you?

Yes.

You'll need Improved Unarmed Strike to take Improved Grapple.

Right.

Apart from that, it's a awesomely lame PrC, good for melee, nothing else. Very boring at that, too.

I suppose that would depend upon the player.

Ranged casters will laugh themselves silly. Ranged combat will be great fun with your puny +9 attack bonus at level 20.

It's fairly clearly a melee build, I'd have thought.

Every Will save will screw you, roleplaying is not an issue at all

Ah, I think this is where we disconnect. My ability to roleplay has very little to do with the numbers on the character sheet.

Thanks for the comments.

 

[VonRichthofen]

Ah, I think this is where we disconnect. My ability to roleplay has very little to do with the numbers on the character sheet.

Seconded.

Generally speaking.

Not with the warhulk.

You have a build-in mechanism that actually prevents you from doing much more than: Me-you-kill.

While you may enjoy playing a moron (can be fun at times), a moron with a rules-dictated lack of options remains a sad exercise IMNSHO. You may differ of course.

 

[Kafkonia]

You have a build-in mechanism that actually prevents you from doing much more than: Me-you-kill.

This PrC screams out "miniatures class" more than any other in the MiniHB.

 

[Iku Rex]

Sticking with the basics from your build I'd do something like:

3rd/ECL 5 -- Barbarian 1. Rage (Whirling Frenzy) and Fast Movement. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Chain (SavSpec or OAdv). A reach weapon is very useful for a war hulk since you depend on having targets lined up within your reach. The chain is a spiked chain with less damage (bludgeoning) but it makes a lot more sense and looks better. YMMV. Rank 4 in Jump.

4th/ECL 6 -- Barbarian 2. Uncanny Dodge. (Consider replacing uncanny dodge with Improved Trip from UA wolf totem barbarian.) +1 Str. Rank 5 in Jump.

5th/ECL 7 -- Fighter 3. Rank 6 in Jump.

6th/ECL 8 -- Fighter 4. Knockback (Races of Stone), Shock Trooper (CWar). Knockback lets you swat opponents around. (Get armbands of might [CAdv] for better Str checks.) If you push one opponent into another you get to try to trip both thanks to Shock Trooper. Shock Trooper also synergizes well with Leap Attack. Rank 7 in Jump.

7th/ECL 9 -- War Hulk 1. Why delay further? Rank 8 in Jump.

8th/ECL 10 -- War Hulk 2. +1 Str

9th/ECL 11 -- War Hulk 3. Leap Attack.

(12th: Combat Reflexes. If I could squeeze it in earlier I would. It will add up to a lot of extra attacks.)

(Theme song: Crush'em by Meagadeth. )

 

[Machiavelli]

Do you really think Combat Reflexes is worth it? That's only 1 extra attack in a round, and even then only if the enemy provokes attacks of opportunity. Perhaps something like Defensive Sweep (much later, though, because it's a BAB +14 feat) will open up the possibility of more frequent AoO's, but otherwise it's my experience that DM's will play even mooks in a somewhat intelligent manner. Charging/moving toward a hulking beast with huge, bulging muscles and a chain that sweeps mercilessly through arcs of death... doesn't qualify as marginally intelligent. On a battlefield (the War Hulk's playground), where you simply MUST press the attack when ordered to, AoO's would abound.

I guess it just depends on the anticipated settings where this particular War Hulk will fight.

(I'd also like to note that chain-wielding half-orges are found in the dictionary under the definition of cheese)

 

[Iku Rex]

Do you really think Combat Reflexes is worth it? That's only 1 extra attack in a round, and even then only if the enemy provokes attacks of opportunity.

+2 Dex is a cost-effective way to boost AC. He'll want +4 Gloves of Dexterity to go with his mithral full plate (of speed?) eventually.

Perhaps something like Defensive Sweep (much later, though, because it's a BAB +14 feat) will open up the possibility of more frequent AoO's,

Probably "never", as the war hulk doesn't get BAB increases.

but otherwise it's my experience that DM's will play even mooks in a somewhat intelligent manner. Charging/moving toward a hulking beast with huge, bulging muscles and a chain that sweeps mercilessly through arcs of death... doesn't qualify as marginally intelligent. On a battlefield (the War Hulk's playground), where you simply MUST press the attack when ordered to, AoO's would abound.

A half-ogre with a chain has 20' reach. Smaller opponents pretty much have to suck up an AoO or they'll never be able to close. Especially if he uses Knockback to send them flying back on his turn. Opponents may also trigger AoOs in combat with party members or trying to close with party members. If he gets Improved Trip AoOs become even more common.

(I'd also like to note that chain-wielding half-orges are found in the dictionary under the definition of cheese)

Because the Half-Ogre LA of +2 is kinda severe, I don't mind using a little cheese to hold my own.