D&D 5E Helping melee combat to be more competitive to ranged.

[Satyrn]

I wish there was a "hugs" rating I could give your post.

 

[smbakeresq]

Most of my fun now is DMing for kids. They really get into it, they are not concerned with "winning" and there are no arguments at the table. Longtime players too, they see the whole picture and will "give" the DM something.

The middle road are those who look at their PC like it's a video game, just a collection of numbers. 4th edition really encouraged this btw, not the rules set so much as the automated CB on line where you could test many different things in a short time.


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[pemerton]

It's not a videogame thing. It's a "I just want to play a hero doing hero stuff" thing.

Then why bother with rules at all?

<snip>

Playing with different people, especially in shops, has shown me that players today are mostly incapable of role playing anything

[MENTION=28301]smbakeresq[/MENTION], your post doesn't make any sense to me.

(1) What does wanting to play as a hero rather than counting arrows and tracking encumbrance have to do with rules or no rules?

Nothing that I can see.

(2) What does it have to do with "roleplaying" ie being able to make in-character speeches? Nothing that I can see.


I gather that you play mostly D&D. Have you ever played Rolemaster? In RM, a character can short-circuit his/her own brain while trying to cast a spell. That doesn't happen in D&D - does that mean D&D is only for munchkins who can't roleplay and should stick to video games?

Or does it mean that there's zero connection between "grittiness" and roleplaying?

Hard to be sure, I guess!

 

[Celtavian]

As far as the mob scenario, intelligent creatures will see a spell caster concentrating on a spell or see spell casters as the greatest threat and focus them right away, forcing so many concentration checks that spells won't last long.


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Smart casters won't get anywhere near combat or will build a caster class with a high AC. Who cares how smart your creatures are. Combats last 2 or 3 rounds. How soon do they figure out who the caster is and then how to take them out while the martials are hammering on them?

I keep this hearing this rubbish. You seem to think the martials stand there watching the humanoids run by them hammering the casters doing nothing and that the casters stand where they can be easily gotten to casting spells. Smart casters get nowhere near battle, nor let on that they're the casters until the martials are engaged. The battle is almost over by the time they're casting mop up spells or cantrips to finish off mobs that have been beaten down.

What kind of group do you play in? Groups where the casters run up first and start launching spells? I don't play in those kind of groups. Casters if the win initiative, usually defer their actions and hang back until the martials are clearly engaged and obstructing the path. Then they start casting spells as needed to make sure we win. They may not cast more than a few cantrips for most battles letting the martials hammer.

I feel like the majority of players bringing this up are playing in groups with casters that play their character like a martial casting spells as soon as their initiative goes and running towards the battle without caring if the martials set up to obstruct the path first. My groups just don't do such a poor tactic. They set up to take full advantage of ranged striking and spellcasting every battle they can. I have to plan accordingly to counter this for at least a few of the big battles as long as I can come up with a decent reason why the enemy can manage it.

 

[Celtavian]

I am honestly shocked that 70 Gnolls shredded themselves on a Spirit Guardians spell instead of firing 70 longbows. 70d8+70 (385) * hit rate DPR. If your whole goal was to try out mob attacks, then you try out mob attacks: if there's an AC 20 Fighter, well then he takes 14d8+14 (77) damage that round from 70 arrows (group ranged attack at +3).

Gnolls can survive a Spirit Guardians spell from a level 8 spellcaster, but it still slows them down, which is exactly the sort of situation that causes soldiers to pull out longbows if they weren't already using them. "Oh, something is slowing gnolls who try to reach the cleric! Guess we better shoot him instead!"

I can only assume you took away their longbows for some reason. But I can't imagine why.

Gnolls are one of the better creatures for ranged attacks if the party can't set up to counter them well.

 

[hawkeyefan]

Smart casters won't get anywhere near combat or will build a caster class with a high AC. Who cares how smart your creatures are. Combats last 2 or 3 rounds. How soon do they figure out who the caster is and then how to take them out while the martials are hammering on them?

I keep this hearing this rubbish. You seem to think the martials stand there watching the humanoids run by them hammering the casters doing nothing and that the casters stand where they can be easily gotten to casting spells. Smart casters get nowhere near battle, nor let on that they're the casters until the martials are engaged. The battle is almost over by the time they're casting mop up spells or cantrips to finish off mobs that have been beaten down.

What kind of group do you play in? Groups where the casters run up first and start launching spells? I don't play in those kind of groups. Casters if the win initiative, usually defer their actions and hang back until the martials are clearly engaged and obstructing the path. Then they start casting spells as needed to make sure we win. They may not cast more than a few cantrips for most battles letting the martials hammer.

I feel like the majority of players bringing this up are playing in groups with casters that play their character like a martial casting spells as soon as their initiative goes and running towards the battle without caring if the martials set up to obstruct the path first. My groups just don't do such a poor tactic. They set up to take full advantage of ranged striking and spellcasting every battle they can. I have to plan accordingly to counter this for at least a few of the big battles as long as I can come up with a decent reason why the enemy can manage it.

His post was in response to a description of 70 gnolls being shredded by a Spirit Guardians spell. So in this case, the spell was already in place. Since it is centered on the caster, it doesn't take a genius to figure out who cast the spell. And since there are 70 gnolls, all of whom should likely be equipped with longbows, there's no reason to think that martial warriors can stop them all, or that the gnolls wouldn't simply fire arrows over the warriors at the cleric.

So it's far from a rubbish argument.

A caster with Spirit Guardians in place needs to get near the battle in order for the spell to be effective. And whether or not a caster lets anyone know he's a caster before the martials are engaged is going to vary by caster. However, I'd say that since it's a divine spell that we're talking about, and since clerics tend to be devout in their worship of their chosen deity, I don't know if I'd assume that their default stance would be to hide that fact. In fact, I'd say this kind of assumption is an example of players making decisions more about the game than their characters might make about the world.

Your assumptions about what kind of group anyone making these points must be a part of are totally unwarranted because again, this was in response to another poster, one who thinks that ranged combat is too great. So it's a specific example being discussed. There is no need for you to guess at how anyone else plays the game. Instead, discuss the 70 gnolls running to their death against a spell with a 15' radius centered on the caster.

This example isn't really about how smart the monsters are so much as how stupid they shouldn't be.

 

[smbakeresq]

If your combats are lasting 2-3 rounds then your DM is incompetent. If its irrelevant how intelligent creatures as to how they are played then your DM is incompetent. That's just the way it is.

There is no deferring of actions now, delay is gone, casters cant do that. They can ready actions.

So how are you playing again?

 

[smbakeresq]

[MENTION=28301]smbakeresq[/MENTION], your post doesn't make any sense to me.

(1) What does wanting to play as a hero rather than counting arrows and tracking encumbrance have to do with rules or no rules?

Nothing that I can see.

(2) What does it have to do with "roleplaying" ie being able to make in-character speeches? Nothing that I can see.


I gather that you play mostly D&D. Have you ever played Rolemaster? In RM, a character can short-circuit his/her own brain while trying to cast a spell. That doesn't happen in D&D - does that mean D&D is only for munchkins who can't roleplay and should stick to video games?

Or does it mean that there's zero connection between "grittiness" and roleplaying?

Hard to be sure, I guess!

You missed it entirely.

D&D has become combat, combat, combat rest to get abilities back, combat, combat, combat, need long rest so lets get out of the dungeon and come back with no repercussions. It was never intended that way. It was designed as an immersive experience, wherein your PC lived in that world day to day with that world limitations. That's why stuff like encumbrance, cost of living, social interaction, food costs at the taverns, weather for outdoors travel, outdoor travel times, and basically everything outside of actual combat was put in; %50 of the rulebooks in existence as an estimate but I didn't do a page count. Sadly that is not used by the World of Warcraft crowd, they don't want to be bothered with it, they want it hand waived all away. But then those same people come here and complain about things in the ruleset while never bothering to use the whole ruleset to balance stuff out. Its a meta game issue on how people play.

I think some of this is because people only play in shops, they get there and only have few hours to play so just don't want to be bothered with anything outside of adventuring. Mostly though its just times are different. They do not have a regular group that (in todays age) communicate outside of the game through emails what going PC and gameworld wise while the group isn't together adventuring. That's a shame, because there is a whole lot there to be experienced outside of the dungeon. Players want it to be like computer games, for example, Dragon Age, where you just show up to combat and go, if you lose you just reload the last save; every now and then you get a speech interaction that's leads to a quest. D&D was never like that, and today it is trying not to be like that in a community with many other games to play. D&D is still book based, if you like to read books as opposed to a PDF's its better.

The level of detail in D&D is far greater than videogames, but it requires your group to immerse. That's not what most people want to do, they want the quick fix. I said it was a joy to play with kids, they get fully into it, every time I run into one of the kids I DM for outside of the game they have something for me game related, or they ask my kids to relay something to me. The parents in the group get this, so ride along with it also. Yes, they keep track of arrows since the boxes are on character sheets (plug for Forged Anvil here on ENWORLD), the affiliations matter (getting promoted in the Harpers or Lords Alliance is a big deal) backgrounds matter (Folk Hero and Entertainer is a big favorite since you can get free or cheap lodgings and food) spellbooks are a big deal (yes they pay to copy them and scrolls are mostly used for this) and the right people craft healing potions and anti-toxins. Getting a free cart and horse was a big deal so they could haul their stuff around, and getting a loyal henchman to watch the cart was a small milestone. Tensers Floating Disk is a staple to carry the loot out of the dungeon, Quiver of Ehlonna is good thing (to carry all that stuff for only 2 lbs) and Boots of the North are used as extreme temperatures rules are in effect. They do these things on their own.

Its just different now, that's all. Its easier with email. The game has remained excellent, but the crown wants something different now. The good news is that we have enough people like me to support games like Runebound and the upcoming Gloomhaven, which while different keep the theme alive. A redeeming grace of in person games like this is no trolls, people are too afraid to do it in person.

Off topic but a lot are still reading this thread

As a side note, for DM's, get a copy of City of Skulls (IIRC) from about 25 years ago. They have a reputation system in there that I have used for years, for the trouble the PC's cause for the BBEG they get reputation points. At certain point levels the BBEG sends out a "hit squad" to deal with the problem, which is the PC's. This way the random encounters are not really random, they fit in with the story.

 

[smbakeresq]

Gnolls are one of the better creatures for ranged attacks if the party can't set up to counter them well.

Correct. They wont all rush in either, some will range while other melee. With that many arrows I probably wouldn't even role dice, just have the gnolls all "target a square" where the PC take some hits every turn based off their AC. With the AC 20 fighter he would get hit on %20 of the attacks against him for 5 dmg each attack, so if 10 archers shoot at him per round, he would take 2 hits. This also encourage PCs to get in there to mix it up as they get frustrated by taking "ongoing" damage like that. This is done to speed the game along so you can get back to the PC's turns, which is more important.

 

[Satyrn]

[MENTION=28301]smbakeresq[/MENTION], your post doesn't make any sense to me.

Don't worry about it, sir. It didn't make sense to me either, and was gonna reply to him some way like you did, but I realized I felt kinda sad for him that he's upset there are people who don't enjoy the exact same parts of the game he does.

(Man, I can be a sarcastic jerk)