Helpless characters and Reflex saves

[MerricB]

G'day!

Can anyone give me a 3.5e (or 3e) rules reference that states that helpless characters (paralysed, sleeping, bound, etc.) automatically fail Reflex saves?

The closest I've found is in the 3.5e DMG Glossary entry for Evasion/Improved Evasion, which implies that such is the case.

Cheers!

 

[rrealm]

P.19 of the 3.5 main D&D FAQ (as of 9/24/2004) answers your question

If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively
0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your
Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever
you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.​

Also, this is the same info from a prior thread located here...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

The FAQ is also known for informing you that you can use Power Attack and Weapon Finesse at the same time. Though the penalties stack, you can add to both your Armor Class and to your damage rolls at the same time.

 

[Scion]

Just because the faq contains errors does not mean everything in it is in error

 

[Deset Gled]

The FAQ is also known for informing you that you can use Power Attack and Weapon Finesse at the same time. Though the penalties stack, you can add to both your Armor Class and to your damage rolls at the same time.

Umm, do you mean Combat Expertise instead of Weapon Finesse? That doesn't seem to make much sense the way it's written.

And if so, it's absolutely correct.

 

[RigaMortus]

The FAQ is also known for informing you that you can use Power Attack and Weapon Finesse at the same time. Though the penalties stack, you can add to both your Armor Class and to your damage rolls at the same time.

And what would the reason be to NOT allow this to work?

 

[LokiDR]

The theme of D&D is allow saves even though it may seem silly. You play a hero, and it is un-heroic to die in your sleep with no chance. I would just go with the FAQ on this one.

 

[rrealm]

It should be reminded that characters with evasion would not get to take advantage of it since they are helpless.

If a 5th level wizard with an Int of 15 casts fireball at a sleeping fighter, rogue, cleric, and sorcerer, the DC is 15. The 5th level rogue (who probably has the best chance to succeed) still needs to roll a 17 or higher (+3 base - 5 [effective dexterity score]) the other characters are in sad shape needing a 19 or higher on a d20.

"Realistically" a wizard NPC worth his salt would have at least a 16. If he is the BBEG, he might have up to a 19 (18 +1 for level 4 ability point) or higher if he is a race that increases INT. Unless the party is high level being blasted by a low level spell, they are going to fail and take full damage. At least they get a slim chance to live...

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Umm, do you mean Combat Expertise instead of Weapon Finesse?

Nope. I mean Weapon Finesse.

That doesn't seem to make much sense the way it's written.

Which is exactly my point.

And if so, it's absolutely correct.

See above.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

And what would the reason be to NOT allow this to work?

The fact that Weapon Finesse doesn't involve any penalties to your Attack Bonus for commensurate Dodge bonuses to AC?