Hercules in Deities and Demigods

[jasamcarl]

Upper Krust...

You know the combat mechanics of the Avatar true, but just as you can't judge the effectivness of Summon Monster by the simple stats of the creature summoned (duration, casting time, limitation on where/when etc) you can't know how effective creating an Avatar is. In the former case, the spell isn't as effective as simply having such an ally permenantly with no cost would indicate. This holds true for the Avatar ability: THE ABILITY IS MORE THAN JUST THE STATS OF THE AVATAR!!! Do you understand?

And when did your self-described 'Speculation' and 'Educated Guesses' become FACTS which i have chosen to disregard? Hermes can summon and infinite number of Avatars...yeah right....

 

[jasamcarl]

On the Topic of Speculation....

Of course you can speculate and throw out what-if scenarios, but please be consistent with that without declaring that you have facts. You might have been able to derive the quantifiable stats to which i say 'Bully for you!' but to make blind assertions as to the qualititave nature of Salient abilities which by definition rarely included in a stat block and then to chime in with 'BROKEN! BROKEN!'......kinda puts me off....

 

[Glyfair]

Hi Glyfair mate!

Thanks again for stopping by again!



Thats confirmed a number of other ideas I thought.

I wonder what Heras Levels are:

Probably Outsider 20HD/Wizard 20/Cleric 20 (with perhaps Fighter 10 as well?) if the other two are any indication!?

I don't think cleric levels. The first thing we get is the end of her spell-like abilities, and then the list of Wizard Spells per day (4/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4) and her base DC =18+ spell level.

So, I don't think Cleric level's are in the mix. Actually, I don't see any deities having Cleric levels. After all, who do they worship? Not that it's an impossible circumstance, but I don't think it fits in with any known pantheon.

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[CRGreathouse]

Actually, I don't see any deities having Cleric levels.

St. Cuthbert would be a logical choice.

 

[LordMelkor{Talos}]

Upper Krust, have you noticed the fact, that if Avatar`s Divine Rank= half of deity`s Divine Rank, than we can assume that 15 is max for Intermediate Deity, and 16 is minimum for Greater Deity?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Upper Krust...

Morning all!

Be careful Krust, if you speculate too much, you might get in trouble

Nothing I can't handle I'm sure!

You know the combat mechanics of the Avatar true,

Thank you.

but just as you can't judge the effectivness of Summon Monster by the simple stats of the creature summoned (duration, casting time, limitation on where/when etc)

I fail to see what the 'Summon Monster' analogy has to do with this!? Avatars have always been permanent beings in D&D and I see no logical reason why this is set to change!?

you can't know how effective creating an Avatar is.

We know that WotC regard it as effective as one Salient Divine Ability.

In the former case, the spell isn't as effective as simply having such an ally permenantly with no cost would indicate.

True. But then unless they impose some time limit on Avatar existence this example doesn't help us.

This holds true for the Avatar ability: THE ABILITY IS MORE THAN JUST THE STATS OF THE AVATAR!!! Do you understand?

If you notice from Glyfairs post when describing Hera's Avatar WotC write:

"As Hera except..."

They then proceed to list the differences.

If you are implying that any character is more than just the sum of their parts then I agree. But that in no way displaces any part of my argument.

Although somewhere along the line I have lost what we were arguing about!?

We know certain facts, to which I have added some speculation and subsequently an opinion based on that speculation.

Are you arguing that I may be incorrect!? I agree.

Are you arguing I don't have the right to speculate about upcoming products!? If so, you are missing the point of the General Discussion board.

And when did your self-described 'Speculation' and 'Educated Guesses' become FACTS which i have chosen to disregard?

I wasn't describing any speculation I was refering to the FACTS we have already unearthed.

I suggest you read them...weeping is optional.

- Automatic Actions (DC 10 + Divine Rank)
- Innate Spell Levels (Level 10 + Divine Rank)
- Domain Powers (Uses per day = Divine Rank)
- Divine Aura (DC = Divine Rank + 10 + Cha bonus)
- Salient Divine Abilities (Divine Rank +1, gaining one for Divine Rank +0)
- Divine bonus to AC
- Spell Resistance (32 +Divine Rank)
- Damage Reduction (35 + Divine Rank)

Hermes can summon and infinite number of Avatars...yeah right....

I don't remember saying that. What I did say was that it looks as though the Avatar ability represents one Salient Divine Ability choice; of which Hermes has at least 16 (Divine Rank +1).

Presumably they wouldn't allow you to chose 'Avatar' at Divine Rank 0 or 1.

Of course you can speculate and throw out what-if scenarios,

Thank you.

but please be consistent with that without declaring that you have facts.

I have been consistent, you just haven't been paying attention mate!

You might have been able to derive the quantifiable stats to which i say 'Bully for you!'

Thank you.

but to make blind assertions as to the qualititave nature of Salient abilities which by definition rarely included in a stat block and then to chime in with 'BROKEN! BROKEN!'......kinda puts me off....

The 'qualititive nature of Salient Abilities' will have little effect on either my 'mechanical' or 'philosophical' argument.

Divine Rank may represent the equivalent of +1 (Epic) Level, or +2, or +3, or +4 etc. But it definately represents a '+'.

What I have said when delivering speculation is that 'based on the evidence at our disposal if they are handling things like this then heres my opinion'...

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Glyfair mate!

I don't think cleric levels. The first thing we get is the end of her spell-like abilities, and then the list of Wizard Spells per day (4/6/6/6/6/5/5/5/5/4) and her base DC =18+ spell level.

So, I don't think Cleric level's are in the mix. Actually, I don't see any deities having Cleric levels.

That is interesting and somewhat curious, what would happen to cleric levels upon ascension under those circumstances (change to Outsider Hit Dice?)

Its possible that you only got the end of her spell like abilities, Cleric Spells would be listed before Wizard spells after all.

After all, who do they worship?

You would assume if they could grant spells to others they could grant them to themselves.

Not that it's an impossible circumstance, but I don't think it fits in with any known pantheon.

I'm not entirely convinced they will divorce Cleric (and Paladin) levels from divinity.

Hello CR mate!

St. Cuthbert would be a logical choice.

Perhaps when we get the second preview in Dragon magazine shortly we will know more!? Anyone heard who the four Greyhawk deities being detailed are? (Kelanen; Vecna; St. Cuthbert and Boccob hopefully? Or maybe Iuz in place of Kelanen?)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Lord Talos mate!

Upper Krust, have you noticed the fact, that if Avatar`s Divine Rank= half of deity`s Divine Rank, than we can assume that 15 is max for Intermediate Deity, and 16 is minimum for Greater Deity?

I had.

Seemingly:

Quasi/Hero-deity = Divine Rank 0
Demigod = Divine Rank 1-5
Lesser God = Divine Rank 6-10
Intermediate God = Divine Rank 11-15
Greater God = Divine Rank 16-20

Uber Deity = Divine Rank 21-25?

Incidently Lord Talos mate! Sorry I haven't gotten round to the Portfolio secondary aspect list yet on the IH thread. A number of things cropped up. Not least the ensuing discussion (and debate) within this thread.

 

[Gez]

Since Hera's divine rank is (probably) 16, not 20, the automatic action DC formulae is probably not 10 + divine rank. Maybe an ability bonus play somewhere ? There's probably another factor than a flat 10.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Gez mate!

Automatic Actions: She can use any Cha or Int related skill as a free action if the DC is 30 or lower.

Since Hera's divine rank is (probably) 16, not 20, the automatic action DC formulae is probably not 10 + divine rank. Maybe an ability bonus play somewhere ? There's probably another factor than a flat 10.

I agree that does throw a 'spanner in the works' (unless of course its a typo - which is my guess?).

Not sure it could be an ability bonus since it is given for multiple ability score related skills.

Automatic Actions: (Herc can use any Str or Dex based skill as a free action if the DC is 15 or lower if he has the skill or it can be used untrained)

(Meant to add)

...and Hercs Str and Dex scores are hardly equal.