Hercules in Deities and Demigods

[CRGreathouse]

Re: And another thing....

This does not preclude God-level play, but instead deals with two planes of play, one divine, one mortal. Balance between the two in shared roles is meaningless.

UK would certainly disagree.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Perhaps jasamcarl is unfamiliar with Krusty's own very extensive deity system? He's worked on it for quite a while, and so might have some insight into the matter at hand. I realize, of course, that something not blessed directly by WotC and that is a fan-created work of love may be "unworthy" of serious attention (not a viewpoint I agree with, let me emphasize).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: UK

Hi jasamcarl!

Considering we don't yet have a clear idea of what an 'Avatar' ability would entail, especially its limitations,

Its seems pretty obvious. 'Avatar' is one of the Salient Abilities that in effect creates an Avatar. The Avatar in question is a duplicate of the god with its Divine Rank (and therefore comensurate abilities) halved. Deities gain one Salient Divine Ability per Divine Rank it would seem.

i would not be quick to comment on how much of an advantage Hermes has over Hercules.

I think we can have a fair idea though. Obviously Hermes wouldn't want to go toe to toe with the bearded slugger (but then hes a Rogue/Wizard) but if Levels and Divine Rank mean anything he is clearly the more powerful; as it should be: Intermediate God to Demigod.

My point is that even Hermes Avatar is more powerful than Hercules. It also seems apparent that creating these Avatars (one Salient Ability Slot) isn't such a big deal.

Now as to the rules themselves, brevity is always appreciated....

I agree, where applicable.

i will say this, i find the notion that rules must convey through their exact mechanical execution inherent flavor absurd and i believe the level of abstraction and simplicity inherent in d20 to be one of its greater assets as it trusts the dm and players to create a 'Realist' vision of what their die roles represent.

I seem to have lost the point you were trying to make somewhere in the above sentence...my apologies.

I am implying that (in my opinion) the treatment of Avatars is incorrect both mechanically and philosophically.

Mechanically Hermes seems capable of creating something more powerful than himself in and of his own energy/power, which defies fundamental laws of physics - which, before you counter with "its a fantasy game that doesn't have to abide by physics" ask yourself 'if Hermes can create something more powerful than himself, why then doesn't he just make himself more powerful!?'

Philosophically I always thought Avatars were meant to bridge the gap between mortals and immortals. It therefore seems self-defeating to set their power so close to the deities themselves. (In this instance of mentioning mortals I am refering to those of non-epic levels).

 

[Aaron L]

Mixed god and mortal parties? The Avengers anyone? Hercules, Thor, and...Captain America?! Yeah, it could work, I would say.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

And might i add that some of your assumptions are off the wall....

True, but they are based on all the facts we currently have in our possession.

one divine rank equates with 2 epic levels....

I already mentioned I was using this solely as a basis for an example.

it is seemingly easy to create 4 avatars....

Not an unreasonable assumption given the facts at our disposal.

do you have a sources to verify any of this?

Everything up to this point is an educated guess based on the current information.

I don't think you fundementally understood what i was getting at through 'Qualitative' difference

I believe I did.

..gods and mortals are probably not meant to be substituted, but are instead complementary..there are things one can do which the other can't and vice versa.

If gods were not meant to be substituted with mortals they wouldn't be based on the same fundamentals (Levels/Hit Dice).

I agree gods can do things that likely mortals can't regardless of level though.

In this regard equating epic and divine rank/levels seem out of place.

I think you are forgetting that 'power is relative'.

If you quantify a deity; it will have a Challenge Rating! Theres no point having rules if they go ephemeral all of a sudden when we apply divine rank.

Mixed god/mortal parties are probably not the intent of the rules.

In your previous post you just expounded on one of the greatest merits of the d20 system being its 'level of abstraction'.

Are you now saying mortals and gods shouldn't interact at any level!?

This does not preclude God-level play, but instead deals with two planes of play, one divine, one mortal. Balance between the two in shared roles is meaningless.

"someone hold my coat for me!"

On the contrary; balance between the two is EVERYTHING!

Without the dichotomy between mortal and immortal ANY meaning of what deities represent is lost!

 

[jasamcarl]

no, no, UK

Yes, Avatar is listed as a salient ability, but we don't yet know what the ability is. Yes, obviously the creation of an avatar is involved, but any restrictions in terms of time, number of Avatars, actions that can be taken concurently, etc are not known. You said it yourself, wotc seems to be going the gods as npc route (i.e. as an alternative to dm fudging); my point here is that is not 'broken' unless wotc clearly intended for these gods to be played. And as to Hermes making something more powerful than himself...well, see above; we don't know what the ABILITY 'Avatar' is as of yet. Do we know what the Avatar is in and of itself. Yes.

I would suggest you wait until the book actually makes an appearance, until then your musings aren't striking me a relevant.

 

[Akunin]

One thing though, I was chatting with another such playtester a few months ago and he remarked that it was possible to min/max a fighter with a Str of 135 (I think he was using an 80th-level fighter as an example).

I can think of one way, yeah. Got 49M gold pieces handy?

Yes, it can be done by throwing money into item creation, but a more realistic value for a level 80 fighter (not including items) is a little less than half that. And that's with your 5 points from wishes, attribute points gained through levels, and devoting as much of your Epic benefits to enhancing strength as possible.

So two points:
- Did you find ability scores to be this flexible?
- Do the ability scores for Hermes (and Hercules to an extent) seem fairly weak in comparison?

Ability scores for Epic characters are more flexible, yes (there are more ways to improve attributes). Bear in mind that in order to get a strength as high as I described requires focusing your character in one direction to the point that he'll be lacking in the others. STR of 60+ is nice, but the rest of your stats will still be well within mortal range, and you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that comes with Epic level benefits...

Hercules' stats look about right, but Hermes should be a bit higher, I think.

originally posted by jasamcarl
I doubt a mortal 80th level character would have the ability to create 250,000 gp is items at will even per the epic rules.

250k? Wow. That's super cheap! Actually, that's at the low price end for Epic items.

[EDIT: Misread the "at will" bit - no, they use Item Creation Rules, with a few additions]

The 49 million gp item referance, above is an item that could (if you had the money and the time, not to mention the xp) be made at a much level lower than 80. Much lower.

 

[jasamcarl]

ok......

No, i meant that a pc could not be a God in a normal adventuring party and maintain balance. Nowhere did i say that they could not battle each other...its again allows dms to create balanced encounters, nothing more. And by abstraction i was referring to the action itself, not the result. As of these rules, the avatar is what one would expect, a less powerful version of the current diety. To add a large number of akward new rules to simulate this would be overkill.

 

[jasamcarl]

Yes, but..

Can the epic level character create such at will? That represents an incredable amount of flexibility.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: And another thing....

Hey CRGreathouse mate!

UK would certainly disagree.

You guys know me too well!

Hi ColonelHardisson mate!

Perhaps jasamcarl is unfamiliar with Krusty's own very extensive deity system?

I wouldn't hold that against him (or anyone) though!

He's worked on it for quite a while, and so might have some insight into the matter at hand.

I would like to think so...but then again I am probably biased!

I realize, of course, that something not blessed directly by WotC and that is a fan-created work of love may be "unworthy" of serious attention (not a viewpoint I agree with, let me emphasize).

...glad to hear it!