Hercules in Deities and Demigods

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Akunin!

Well, with some of the Epic Feats, they can get crits most of the time, and do "instant death" effects similar to the "death by massive damage" rule. Epic Regdar is damn scary

Some of those Divine abilities look similar to some of the Epic Feats, too - some have the same names, as well. Looks like a party of moderately-high-leveled Epic characters might be able to give a Demigod a run for his money.

I presume you are/were an Epic playtester (don't worry I won't ask you to spill specifics)!?

One thing though, I was chatting with another such playtester a few months ago and he remarked that it was possible to min/max a fighter with a Str of 135 (I think he was using an 80th-level fighter as an example).

So two points:

- Did you find ability scores to be this flexible?

- Do the ability scores for Hermes (and Hercules to an extent) seem fairly weak in comparison?

 

[jasamcarl]

perhaps but

Given that the epic level rules were meant to scale infinitly, it goes without saying that a character who has progressive ability, i.e. levels, is going to eventually surpass a god which is by neccessesity fixed in power ala Dieties and Demigods. 80th level you say? I have no problem with this. Besides, combat ability is not the sole definition of ecl...cr perhaps, but not ecl. I doubt a mortal 80th level character would have the ability to create 250,000 gp is items at will even per the epic rules. The Epic fighter might best if in that one respect, but is not nearly as flexible. A Qualititave difference, in this respect gods will always be superior.

And the Avatar rules sound sound. They are simply the diety with all its 'mortal' class abilities, but with greatly reduced divine. How does that sound silly as it jives with the quantifiable, planer scale of divine power you have been advocating.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: perhaps but

Hi jasamcarl!

Given that the epic level rules were meant to scale infinitely, it goes without saying that a character who has progressive ability, i.e. levels, is going to eventually surpass a god which is by neccessesity fixed in power ala Dieties and Demigods.

I totally agree.

My query was regarding the dichotomy of mortal (epic) and immortal characters. If an 80th-level character can have a Strength of 135*, then surely 40th-level Hercules and (effectively) 60th-level Hermes are somewhat anaemic by comparison!?

*Assuming the poster wasn't lying!?

80th level you say? I have no problem with this.

I certainly don't! My character is over 80th-level!

Besides, combat ability is not the sole definition of ecl...cr perhaps, but not ecl.

True. Though Epic Level and Divine Rank must be quantifiable; and therefore comparative at some point within Challenge Ratings.

In fact I have made that exact point on Andy Collins message boards (still awaiting reply).

I doubt a mortal 80th level character would have the ability to create 250,000 gp is items at will even per the epic rules.

I agree. Though I can see that particular power being exploited by PCs if they ever reached such lofty heights. Items at will for no energy expenditure is not something I would advocate.

As such it would be fair to assume most of Deities & Demigods is NPC-centric. Whereas my own is PC-centric.

The Epic fighter might best if in that one respect, but is not nearly as flexible. A Qualititave difference, in this respect gods will always be superior.

Obviously 'pound for pound' deities will always be tougher.

But if 40 total levels plus Divine Rank +5 is roughly equal to 50 total levels (?) then a 51st-level character will be (effectively) more powerful than that deity.

And the Avatar rules sound sound. They are simply the diety with all its 'mortal' class abilities, but with greatly reduced divine. How does that sound silly as it jives with the quantifiable, planer scale of divine power you have been advocating.

True, the measurement of Divine Power is fundamentally similar to what I advocate. However, they seem to have adopted their Avatar rules for the sake of brevity rather than mechanics or philosophy. This is something I don't concur with.

Obviously we don't yet understand the full scope of Divine Rank, but to assume Divine Rank is (roughly) equivalent to 2 Epic Levels for the purposes of this example - then Hermes is effectively 90th-level and his Avatar is effectively 74th-level.

So Hermes has effectively created a 74th-level facsimilie of himself to operate on the mortal plane at virtually no cost to himself (from what I can tell you can adopt one Salient Divine Ability every Divine Rank, one of the options is 'Avatar').

So we can see Hermes can create Avatars easily more powerful than Hercules himself (and I would bet Hestia too if we could see her stats).

Hermes is (potentially*) CR 41
Hermes Avatar (potentially*) CR 38
Hercules is (potentially*) CR 32

Assuming every Divine Rank (roughly) equivalent to +2 Levels.

If Hermes created 4 Avatars they would be more powerful than he. Since creating 4 Avatars seemingly wouldn't be that difficult it must be noted that Hermes can therefore create something more powerful than himself (at relatively no cost) which is fundamentally impossible and therefore effectively broken!

 

[Gez]

Originally posted by Glyfair (at several places ):
So, here is the little we have on Hera (that I haven't mentioned before).

Senses: a note at the end of this rather area states "She can block the sensing power of deities of her rank or lower at up to two remote locations at once for 16 hours."

Portfolio sense: I mentioned hers before, but she is aware of these events (marriages and cheating husbands) sixteen weeks before they occur and retains the sensation for sixteen weeks after they happen.


You catch the end of Hera's spell-like abilites, her "Other Divine Powers" column, and her avatar (Divine rank 8, incidentally).

Originally posted by UK:
Now thats interesting. I would have assumed they were going to have Avatars at half Divine Rank...but apparently not.

Apparently they do. But her divine rank seems to be 16, not 20.

 

[Gez]

Well, this topic is not dead, is it ? It is slipping on the second page !

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Gez mate!

Apparently they do. But her divine rank seems to be 16, not 20.

So what your saying is Krusty scoops another one!

 

[Ristamar]

So what your saying is Krusty scoops another one!

In Krust we trust...

 

[jasamcarl]

UK

Considering we don't yet have a clear idea of what an 'Avatar' ability would entail, especially its limitations, i would not be quick to comment on how much of an advantage Hermes has over Hercules. Now as to the rules themselves, brevity is always appreciated....i will say this, i find the notion that rules must convey through their exact mechanical execution inherent flavor absurd and i believe the level of abstraction and simplicity inherent in d20 to be one of its greater assets as it trusts the dm and players to create a 'Realist' vision of what their die roles represent.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Ristamar mate!

In Krust we trust...

Appreciate the love!

 

[jasamcarl]

And another thing....

And might i add that some of your assumptions are off the wall....one divine rank equates with 2 epic levels....it is seemingly easy to create 4 avatars....do you have a sources to verify any of this? I don't think you fundementally understood what i was getting at through 'Qualitative' difference..gods and mortals are probably not meant to be substituted, but are instead complementary..there are things one can do which the other can't and vice versa. In this regard equating epic and divine rank/levels seem out of place. Mixed god/mortal parties are probably not the intent of the rules.

This does not preclude God-level play, but instead deals with two planes of play, one divine, one mortal. Balance between the two in shared roles is meaningless.