Hercules in Deities and Demigods

[Glyfair]

I think I may have worked another thing out?

Is Hercules Charisma 24 (or 25) and Hermes Charisma 34 (or 35)? If so the DC for Divine Aura is seemingly based on Divine Rank + Cha Bonus.

So we know Divine Rank affects:

- Automatic Actions (DC 10 + Divine Rank)
- Innate Spell Levels (Level 10 + Divine Rank)
- Domain Powers (Uses per day = Divine Rank)

and possibly

- Divine Aura (DC = Divine Rank + 10 + Cha bonus)

Close. You have Herc's, not Hermes.

Hermes: Str 24, Dex 50, Con 24, Int 31, Wis 26 ,Cha 30
Hercules: S 55, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 24

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[Glyfair]

BTW, regarding a request for Herc's feats: Just take all the main fighter feats from the Core Rules & Sword & Fist, and add a couple. As a taste; he has Blindsight 5-ft. Radius, Divine Might, Great Cleave, Improved Initiative/Trip/Unarmed Strike/Grapple/Critical, Spring Attack, Superior Expertise, Track, Alertness, Whirlwind Attack.

Hermes has a few I don't remember: Fleet of Foot, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Superior Expertise (well, Herc has it, too).

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[mmadsen]

Has anyone thought of mortal Heracles's stats? I think he'd make a fairly straightforward high-level Barbarian and/or Fighter (with superhuman strength):

Heracles
Human (Demi-God) Bar20

Str 30 -- or some other arbitrarily high number
Dex 14 -- he never does anything particularly nimble
Con 20 -- he's tough, but he's not immune to poison
Int 10 -- he never does anything clever
Wis 8 -- violent manic-depressive
Cha 14 -- impressive, but not beautiful or charming

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot; Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder; Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple; optionally, I'd consider Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Crit with Great Club and Longbow, especially if we made Herc a Fighter rather than a straight Barbarian.

 

[Darkness]

Hercules and the D&D Solar come from completely different mythoi though. One's Greek/Roman, and the other's a quasi-Christian angel modified for D&D. They're apples and oranges.

Yeah, but both are fruit (or powerful Outsiders, in this case).

As for 'knowing' anything from Greek myth: Well, maybe we know it - but do the designers know it, too?

 

[Glyfair]

Has anyone thought of mortal Heracles's stats? I think he'd make a fairly straightforward high-level Barbarian and/or Fighter (with superhuman strength):

Heracles
Human (Demi-God) Bar20

Str 30 -- or some other arbitrarily high number
Dex 14 -- he never does anything particularly nimble
Con 20 -- he's tough, but he's not immune to poison
Int 10 -- he never does anything clever
Wis 8 -- violent manic-depressive
Cha 14 -- impressive, but not beautiful or charming

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot; Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Sunder; Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Grapple; optionally, I'd consider Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Improved Crit with Great Club and Longbow, especially if we made Herc a Fighter rather than a straight Barbarian.

Well, to properly stat a non-deified Hercules, you'd need to do a lot of decision making about what's actually happening game-wise in his quests.

For example, in one he holds the world up on his shoulders for Atlas. Is that because he is that strong, or some supernatural quality of the place, or some combination.

Also remember, Hercules was the son of Zeus (killing snake while still in his cradle). Some divine abilites aren't out of line, even besides his great strength.

Glyfair of Glamis

 

[mmadsen]

For example, in one he holds the world up on his shoulders for Atlas. Is that because he is that strong, or some supernatural quality of the place, or some combination.

Well, if we take the Monster Manual as gospel, Atlas, as a Titan, assuming he was a typical Titan, had Str 37. So, if we bumped up Herc's Strength to 37, he should be able to hold up the sky. Heck, maybe the sky wasn't all that heavy for Atlas, and a 30 Strength'll do.

Also remember, Hercules was the son of Zeus (killing snake while still in his cradle). Some divine abilites aren't out of line, even besides his great strength.

Any divine abilities that he didn't have in the myths should be out of line though. There's no reason to think the Greek gods should have DR, acid immunity, etc. And they most definitely should not have superhuman stats across the board. Hercules is not wise and clever, and he's not even particularly amiable and charismatic. Like many of the Greek gods, he can be quite capricious, he's easily tricked or goaded into folly, etc. Further, I don't think he'd even qualify as particularly agile. Athletic? Certainly. Superhumanly quick and nimble? No, not at all.

 

[Akunin]

Anyone else realize that every single time a Greater God ever attacks, they get a critical hit? Wow. I don't know if Epic Level characters can get to that level of power, but that's pretty impressive to me! No wonder they're Greater....

Well, with some of the Epic Feats, they can get crits most of the time, and do "instant death" effects similar to the "death by massive damage" rule. Epic Regdar is damn scary

Some of those Divine abilities look similar to some of the Epic Feats, too - some have the same names, as well. Looks like a party of moderately-high-leveled Epic characters might be able to give a Demigod a run for his money.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Well, it's mostly difference they list for avatars.

Divine Rank 7, AC 66 Attack starts at +56, DR 42/+4 SR 39, divine aura (700 ft, DC 27), all skills reduced by 8

Salient Divine Abilities: Arcane Spell Mastery, Automatic Metamagic (quicken wizard spells), Divine Dodge, Divine Snake Attack, Extra Doman (good & luck), Gust of WInd, Spontaneous Wizard Spells, Supreme Initiative.

So Avatars effectively use the same statistics, with all 'Divine' bonuses/powers reduced by Divine Rank then!?

So Hermes Avatar would have 780hp etc. While fast and friendly; that does seem a bit stupid on a multitude of levels.


I think I have spotted a number of new parameters for Divine Rank:

The number of Salient Abilities, presumably one is chosen per Divine Rank!? (Not sure if the 'Extra Domain' power is factored)

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Glyfair mate!

Close. You have Herc's, not Hermes.

Hermes: Str 24, Dex 50, Con 24, Int 31, Wis 26 ,Cha 30
Hercules: Str 55, Dex 25, Con 28, Int 20, Wis 21, Cha 24

Actually the theory is sound, in my haste I just miscalculated Hermes Charisma.

It also appears that Demigod Divine Auras are +10ft./Divine Rank and Intermediate Deities are +100ft./Divine Rank.

Incidently the Ability Scores for Hermes are incredibly low, Hercules is about where I would have him in this regard though (give or take a few).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there!

Well, if we take the Monster Manual as gospel, Atlas, as a Titan, assuming he was a typical Titan, had Str 37. So, if we bumped up Herc's Strength to 37, he should be able to hold up the sky. Heck, maybe the sky wasn't all that heavy for Atlas, and a 30 Strength'll do.

Atlas was a Greater Titan however.

To actually lift the Earth (assuming some sort of leverage) you require a D&D rated Strength of 410+

Atlas only had to hold up the heavens (Olympus?) though say c.100 million tons requiring Strength 165 to lift.

However, reading between the lines I would say WotC have approached this with a Portfolio ability (I would) - Indomitable Strength perhaps(?); this may allow 'anything' to be lifted.

Any divine abilities that he didn't have in the myths should be out of line though. There's no reason to think the Greek gods should have DR, acid immunity, etc. And they most definitely should not have superhuman stats across the board. Hercules is not wise and clever, and he's not even particularly amiable and charismatic. Like many of the Greek gods, he can be quite capricious, he's easily tricked or goaded into folly, etc. Further, I don't think he'd even qualify as particularly agile. Athletic? Certainly. Superhumanly quick and nimble? No, not at all.

I agree and disagree. I don't think high ability scores should be de rigeur. But I believe deities should be able to manifest powers as they grow in stature. Also within the D&D multiverse the predominence of wishes would surely play a factor in ability scores.