Hercules in Deities and Demigods

[Upper_Krust]

Re: uh, Akunin

Hello again mate!

I was simply taking the premise that Upper Krust was working on, that balance was a neccessity, and turning it on his claims.

Nice try at subversion (again) but I never said that it was a necessity; but its certainly a preference in lieu of the alternative.

That having been said, i agree with you to some extent...the key is intent...if you believe Wotc values balance now (probable) then there is no reason to believe they would not break with past canon or modify the particulars in order to make god mechanically viable/quantifiable.

Are we actually agreeing on something!?

This requires an Oppurtunity cost commensurate with the value of the ability. And again, this is all raw speculation because we do not know what the Avatar ability entails....

Wait a second...are you allowed to speculate yet I am not!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Florin mate!

Just to throw a little more wood on the fire here...

Like we needed it!

I actually agree with jasamcarl's idea on the Avatar ability.

He had an idea - I thought he was just chastising mine! (joking jasamcarl mate!)

It's what struck me as the most logical thing before I read his interpretation. It makes more sense for the Avatar ability to only produce one avatar.

I agree...

However, I also think it's very plausible to make the Avatar ability available for more than one purchase. So, if you want two avatars, buy Avatar twice!!!

...exactly!

One choice of Salient Divine Ability "Avatar" per Avatar...thats what I have been saying all along.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Bring It on......

Hi mate!

I look forward to our next clash of words, uk.

I have to admit I am enjoying it despite the fact I should be busy doing other things...no prizes for guessing what!?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: Re: Once more unto the breach...

Hi Glyfair mate!

My personal take on the "Divine X" abilities is not that they require a Divine Rank of zero or better to take.

Mmmm.

I don't think any of them get better as your divine rank does.

Possible I suppose, but I would disagree with that assessment at this point.

It seems pretty clear Divine 'Abilities' do scale with Divine Rank.

It doesn't seem to work any other way.

After all, no normal feats have a progression based on your level. They all are all or nothing abilites.

Seemingly 'Divine' Abilities (those using the Divine prefix that is) do scale.

Otherwise it wouldn't make sense to noticeably reduce certain Avatar stats.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Berandor!

So what if the DDG book had a preface stating the following:

Avatars:
A deity can have one avatar for every 5 points of divine rank she has.

I like this idea!

The avatar is in existance at all times, but it can only exist for 1 day on the material plane before having to return to the outer planes for at least one day.

Seems fair enough.

Note that all avatars have half the original deity's hit points.

Seemingly this isn't the case otherwise surely it would be mentioned within Hermes (or Heras) Avatar descriptions with the rest of the modifications!?

Then again I would have to say this is a definite possibility and one I would support!

You cannot know that, can you?

Some interesting points (pretty much all of which I would support)

...though (if jasamcarl is reading this) still nothing that contradicts any of my points.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi DarwinofMind!

I have to admit, I completely do not understand the consept of Avatars

Well, the idea stems from Indian Mythology where various deities would descend to Earth in incarnate form.

The key subject to research about this is the god Vishnu.

In 2nd Ed. they allowed the deities to interact with PCs via Avatars. That way even if the Avatar gets destroyed the deity is still intact - representing the mythological and philosophical incorrectness of multiple omnipotent deities that 2nd Ed. advocated.

In 2e, when Gods weren't allowed to have stats, and were depicted as formless ideas without true physical manifestations, I could understand the need for Avatars to give stats to.

True, but 2nd Ed. didn't allow for Deities as PCs.

I understood it, but I didn't agree with it. I just droped the whole arbitrary idea and gave the stats and physical manifestation to the god itself.

They didn't so much drop 2nd Ed. as return to 1st Ed. ideology.

With 3e returning to stated gods with true physical forms I am once again confused as to why we need avatars.

Well, think of the Avatars as powerful servants of the god that just happen to be a virtual facsimilie.

Why does the god need a second set of stats?

I concur that power-wise the Avatar should be well divorced from the Deity itself.

If a god needs to be in 2 places at once, ok, that's what gods do. 2 places, 5 places, 200 places, whatever. They don't need an avatar form to pull it off.

I think the emphasis is that deities are generally not allowed to interfere on the mortal realm personally - only through intermediaries.

I sersiously hope that D&Dg has a No Avatar option or at least a really good explination of why we need them other than just an arbitrary hold over from previous editions.

You could always simply ban the 'Avatar' ability though I think D&Dg will explain its reasoning comrehensively.

 

[Moon_Goddess]

Well, the idea stems from Indian Mythology where various deities would descend to Earth in incarnate form.

The key subject to research about this is the god Vishnu.

To me this doesn't seem to explian the consept. As sending an avatar wouldn't be a god descending to earth it would still be working through an intermidiary, Pelor sending Pelor's avatar to earth is no different than him sending a Solar, just more powerful. I fail to understand why he doesn't come himself.

In 2nd Ed. they allowed the deities to interact with PCs via Avatars. That way even if the Avatar gets destroyed the deity is still intact - representing the mythological and philosophical incorrectness of multiple omnipotent deities that 2nd Ed. advocated.

Easily handled by a rule simular to summoned creatures, you could say any deity destroyed off his home plane rematerializes on his home plane and can't leave again for 1 year and 1 day.

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Originally posted by DarwinofMind
I understood it, but I didn't agree with it. I just droped the whole arbitrary idea and gave the stats and physical manifestation to the god itself.
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They didn't so much drop 2nd Ed. as return to 1st Ed. ideology. advocated.

I think you missunderstood me here, I was saying in 2e, I droped Avatars completely and gave stats to the gods.

I think the emphasis is that deities are generally not allowed to interfere on the mortal realm personally - only through intermediaries.

Purely an abitrary limit, and I feel part of the point of gods is they don't have abitrary limits. Who's to keep a god from interacting with the morals, possibly AO in FR, but in most worlds there is no force to tell the gods what to do

 

[Kobold Avenger]

I've noticed that the descriptions come with the entry "she is immortal". Which might be a special ability in itself. Now while I believe it would most certainly mean that they are never affected by old-age or die from natural causes. I wonder if it would come attached with some ability such as, "When reduced to less than 0 hit points the deity, may return at full hit points and abilities anywhere they desire, after a period of absence based on their divine rank." There would be exceptions to this such as powerful divine sources or and using something like trap the soul.

With something like this the period of the deity's absence could be quite costly, costing them worshippers. The period of absence could be in years for demideities to a matter of rounds (such as the next) for uberdeities. If they don't have something like this, then I'll use this.

But then I think that deities should also be able to use any spell they can grant to their worshippers, at will and as a free action a number of times per round dependant on their divine rank.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

To me this doesn't seem to explian the consept. As sending an avatar wouldn't be a god descending to earth it would still be working through an intermidiary, Pelor sending Pelor's avatar to earth is no different than him sending a Solar, just more powerful. I fail to understand why he doesn't come himself.

Divine Intervention on the mortal plane has repurcussions and reprisals.

...I think Gary Gygax described it in his Gord the Rogue novels as destroying the fabric of reality.

Easily handled by a rule simular to summoned creatures, you could say any deity destroyed off his home plane rematerializes on his home plane and can't leave again for 1 year and 1 day.

Likely they will have something like this as well.

But Avatars provide the deity with another option.

I think you missunderstood me here, I was saying in 2e, I droped Avatars completely and gave stats to the gods.

We did the same ourselves.

Purely an abitrary limit, and I feel part of the point of gods is they don't have abitrary limits. Who's to keep a god from interacting with the mortals, possibly AO in FR, but in most worlds there is no force to tell the gods what to do

Well this would come down to Pantheon Edicts and Immortal Laws.

Ao is an obvious adjudicator.

Personally I think Divine Intervention on the mortal plane is akin to deploying nukes. Everybodies got them but they are rarely used as the retaliation would be devastating to all sides.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi there Kobold Avenger!

I've noticed that the descriptions come with the entry "she is immortal". Which might be a special ability in itself.

I would say it certainly has its merits.

Now while I believe it would most certainly mean that they are never affected by old-age or die from natural causes.

At least...

I wonder if it would come attached with some ability such as, "When reduced to less than 0 hit points the deity, may return at full hit points and abilities anywhere they desire, after a period of absence based on their divine rank." There would be exceptions to this such as powerful divine sources or and using something like trap the soul.

I agree.

With something like this the period of the deity's absence could be quite costly, costing them worshippers.

Deities & Demigods (to my knowledge) doesn't directly equate divinity with worship(pers); though I know something similar that does!

The period of absence could be in years for demideities to a matter of rounds (such as the next) for uberdeities. If they don't have something like this, then I'll use this.

I have something (virtually) identical to this in the Immortals Handbook. I would venture so will Deities & Demigods!?

But then I think that deities should also be able to use any spell they can grant to their worshippers, at will, and as a free action a number of times per round dependant on their divine rank.

Well I have a slightly different take on granting spells.

In effect, deities are divine conduits that allow mortals to tap cosmic energy and shape it to the desired effect.

Thus explaining why deities don't actually have to have clerical powers to be able to grant them; and also why the various ranks of divinity are not relevant to the measure of clerical power available (almost everyone* would worship Greater Gods rather than Hero-deities if they granted access to more powerful spells).