Here Comes the Jury!

[Agemegos]

You're right, except for one little thing - Rule 0.

You're right except for one little thing: we were debating and voting in character. Rule Zero is a prerogative of gamemasters, and characters do not even know that gamemasters exist.

I can't recall EVER seeing a DM penalize a Paladin by FULL revocation of powers - to me, it doesn't even make sense in story terms unless the player intends to go Ex-Paladin.

What's wrong with getting a 9th-level cleric or druid to cast Atonement? That reverses a full loss of powers.

A Paladin with their powers revoked is NOT a Fighter, btw, to those who have suggested that is the case. There's a severe lack of feats and advantages - the ones that balance the Fighter against a Paladin level for level.

No question.

What I'm getting at is - having your powers revoked REALLY sucks.

It sucks. Having them revoked irreversibly is what really sucks. But that only happens under extreme circumstances: if the paladin commits an act of intentional evil. And anyone who does that is either running for Blackguard or should never have played a paladin to start with.

 

[Torm]

You're right except for one little thing: we were debating and voting in character. Rule Zero is a prerogative of gamemasters, and characters do not even know that gamemasters exist.

Ah ha! And by that very same argument, there is no way for our characters to know what the Core Rulebook says about the specifc punishments outlined there - and since, they would have, presumably, in character, witnessed the others that I described earlier having more limited punishments and atonements , I think they would have believed from that previous experience that a wider range was available.

 

[Agemegos]

Ah ha! And by that very same argument, there is no way for our characters to know what the Core Rulebook says about the specifc punishments outlined there

Indeed. And so when you first put the question about 'conduct unbecoming in a paladin' I answered in those terms. It was only when I was heading for bed and it was clear that people wanted a swift, useful, and decisive result that I issued my 'pre-emptive clarification' answering a number of questions that I expected that people might ask while I was asleep.

and since, they would have, presumably, in character, witnessed the others that I described earlier having more limited punishments and atonements , I think they would have believed from that previous experience that a wider range was available.

Presumption is the mother of the same thing that assumption is the mother of, if you get my drift.

Edmund is from a campaign in which characters are not marked with their class. He has never to his knowledge met another paladin, and has never seen anyone cast a spell, except for a demon once. He is only beginning to get suspicious about the fact that his patients sometimes recover with uncanny speed from illnesses and injuries he treats. He has never prepared, let alone used any spells because he doesn't know that he can. Although he is 5th level, he doesn't have a Paladin's Mount because he doesn't have any idea that he is capable of summoning one. Indeed, he doesn't even own a horse, because he is too poor: he was given one once, but itt turned out to be demonic or possessed and he had to kill it. he doesn't even know that he can turn undead, because he hasn't yet met any. (Thought the GM tells me that he was planning a major undead-extravaganza just before the campaign had to be abandoned.)

All this of course means that Edmund is a rather weak character compared to the fighters, rogue, and fighter/rogue in the rest of the party--even though Divine Health and lay on Hands are surprisingly useful in a campaign that seems almost devoid of magical healing.

 

[frankthedm]

I wonder how these threads still come about on every board I read...

Did the rapist deserve to die? Yes.
Did the Paladin kill the rapist? Yes.

Is the Paladin bound to bring the rapist to justice? Yes.
Did he? Yes.

Is the Paladin a social-worker with the rights of the rapist in his mind? No.

The Paladin is a Knight Protector: He brings justice to those who cannot get justice. Remember in medieval times the Lord of the Manor was judge/jury/executioner, and was often fickle or ignorant, and easily bribed. The Paladin is the travelling justiciary who prevents the noble from ignoring crimes or overstepping his mark.

When will people realise that if the punishment meted out by the Paladin fits the crime comitted, the Paladin is in the clear?

Because many folks who play D&D can't leave behind modern moral sets when entering worlds ruled by swords and spells. For them to accept something is the "right thing to do" in D&D when thier moral set says it is "not the right thing to do" would be like admiting thier RL beliefs are flawed.

 

[Piratecat]

Good lord, Frank, this was worth bumping?

 

[Numion]

ARISE, FOUL THREAD!

 

[green slime]

Good lord, Frank, this was worth bumping?

Apparently. And we all see how you voted, as well...

 

[frankthedm]

Good lord, Frank, this was worth bumping?

Oh, i think it is. It cuts right to the center of paladin issues of players and DMs not being on the same page of what being a paladin means and what is expected of them.

If the DM feels a paladin's Abilties are too good for the type of game the DM wants to run, he should change or remove the class. Not have the Paladin...

http://img373.imageshack.us/img373/9853/nerfedbb6.gif​

 

[was]

-I'd have to agree with your DM, but I'd restore the powers if the character regrets the actions and goes on an atonement quest. Despite the fact that the man was engaged in an atrocious crime, he was unarmed and attacked from behind. Now if the paladin beat him unconscious using his fists and turned him over to local authorities and who judged and executed him, I'd have no problem with it.
-I just don't believe that the pc's actions were chivalrous or that they followed an honorable code of conduct. They strike me more as the actions of a vigilante. Unless of course your deity is Charles Bronson.

 

[Tiberius]

Wow. And I thought I was a necromancer!