[+] Here's my ideal future 5E supplement
- Thread starter CapnZapp
- Start date
Tony Vargas
Legend
Do all threads start out automatically [-] so [+][-] is still [-]?
Would [-][-] thus be [+]?
Would [-][-] thus be [+]?
I thought it was like advantage and disadvantage with any number of [-] cancelling out any number of [+].
Of course we wouldn't be having this derail if someone hadn't been so indignant about people pointing out the obvious fact that WOTC has no reason to publish an AD&D.
Which is kind of too bad, because it's kind of an interesting topic ... for something that could be published to dmsguild.
Tales and Chronicles
Jewel of the North, formerly know as vincegetorix
I remember Morrus creating a thread about the idea of having + threads on Enworld some months ago, as something that felt like unofficial beta.
Re-reading the rules of the forum, I cant see anything about it, so I guess he dropped the project.
The OP is the only one I saw using the idea of a + thread in the last months.
Full disclosure: I wasn't going to bother posting to this thread because I think the odds of getting anything official from WOTC on this topic are about as likely as my getting that flying Delorean powered by a Mr Fusion. Interesting idea, but never going to happen. They have a very profitable business model, there's no reason to spend the time and effort to court to a small minority of users.
But that's not why I'm posting, after all I've had enough bicker-fests with CapnZapp there's no need to start another one. Even if he needs to be reminded by Morrus again that he doesn't own the thread just because he started it. But I digress. In an attempt to do my part to contribute something useful...
If I were to attempt to do an AD&D PHB with alternative character classes, even if it only ever made it to the dmsguild, what could it look like?
Let's focus on just one class, the fighter. I like playing fighters, but I don't like fighters that have artificial restrictions on powers they can use. So no superiority dice thank you very much. I don't have a problem with barbarians having limited rages because rages are a supernatural ability, as are an eldritch knights spells. So that leaves me with a champion, but what if I want more customization?
So step 1: get rid of subclasses. Create a new Warrior class (or fighter 2.0 if you wish). Warriors get a minor feat every two levels or a +1 to any ability score. Every 4 levels they get a significant power.
What's a minor feat? Basically half of one feat with the option of "stacking" for interesting flavor. A Significant Power is more like the subclass special abilities. I'd probably consider stealing some of those from all martial-type classes, so if I want a tank fighter that rages now and then without multiclasing I could for example.
Minor Feat Examples:
Break up Shield Master into two
Shield Expert you've mastered protecting yourself with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect
Shield Basher You can use your shield for offense, not just defense
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
Then have improved versions
Improved Shield Expert (prerequisite Shield Expert)
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect even if there are multiple targets.
You gain a +1 to your shield bonus from AC.
Improved Shield Basher
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to attack a creature with an off hand attack with your shield. The attack does 1d6 damage and follows all the other rules of two weapon fighting. If you hit, you can also shove the creature.
There are a lot of other examples as well. Split dual wielder into two and have an improved version that gives you two attacks with your off hand attack.
Would that be too overpowering? I don't know, it would have to be tested.
A significant power could have minimum levels would replace other features like getting a critical on 19-20 with improved version granting the 18-20. Or simply steal things from other classes like the ability to Rage because why should bare-chested barbarians have all the fun?
It would take a fair amount of work and playtesting though to be sure it wasn't the go-to for power builders and to catch obvious exploits.
So yes, it would be nice. Much like that flying Delorean.
But that's not why I'm posting, after all I've had enough bicker-fests with CapnZapp there's no need to start another one. Even if he needs to be reminded by Morrus again that he doesn't own the thread just because he started it. But I digress. In an attempt to do my part to contribute something useful...
If I were to attempt to do an AD&D PHB with alternative character classes, even if it only ever made it to the dmsguild, what could it look like?
Let's focus on just one class, the fighter. I like playing fighters, but I don't like fighters that have artificial restrictions on powers they can use. So no superiority dice thank you very much. I don't have a problem with barbarians having limited rages because rages are a supernatural ability, as are an eldritch knights spells. So that leaves me with a champion, but what if I want more customization?
So step 1: get rid of subclasses. Create a new Warrior class (or fighter 2.0 if you wish). Warriors get a minor feat every two levels or a +1 to any ability score. Every 4 levels they get a significant power.
What's a minor feat? Basically half of one feat with the option of "stacking" for interesting flavor. A Significant Power is more like the subclass special abilities. I'd probably consider stealing some of those from all martial-type classes, so if I want a tank fighter that rages now and then without multiclasing I could for example.
Minor Feat Examples:
Break up Shield Master into two
Shield Expert you've mastered protecting yourself with your shield.
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect that targets only you.
If you are subjected to an effect that allows you to make a Dexterity saving throw to take only half damage, you can use your reaction to take no damage if you succeed on the saving throw, interposing your shield between yourself and the source of the effect
Shield Basher You can use your shield for offense, not just defense
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to shove a creature within 5 feet of you with your shield.
Then have improved versions
Improved Shield Expert (prerequisite Shield Expert)
If you aren't incapacitated, you can add your shield's AC bonus to any Dexterity saving throw you make against a spell or other harmful effect even if there are multiple targets.
You gain a +1 to your shield bonus from AC.
Improved Shield Basher
If you take the Attack action on your turn, you can use a bonus action to try to attack a creature with an off hand attack with your shield. The attack does 1d6 damage and follows all the other rules of two weapon fighting. If you hit, you can also shove the creature.
There are a lot of other examples as well. Split dual wielder into two and have an improved version that gives you two attacks with your off hand attack.
Would that be too overpowering? I don't know, it would have to be tested.
A significant power could have minimum levels would replace other features like getting a critical on 19-20 with improved version granting the 18-20. Or simply steal things from other classes like the ability to Rage because why should bare-chested barbarians have all the fun?
It would take a fair amount of work and playtesting though to be sure it wasn't the go-to for power builders and to catch obvious exploits.
So yes, it would be nice. Much like that flying Delorean.
Jester David
Hero
You just spent a whole post attacking the designers for not completely hitting all their (overly aspirational) design goals!
Try reading my first post. I liked your idea for books. And I think a lot of people would pay good money for them.
What I didn’t care for was your unrealistic mandating that the book has to be released by WotC. As the saying goes, “there’s no point in dreaming, if you are unable to achieve those dreams.”
I have lots of great ideas for books.
The one I’ve long been pitching is a Hacker’s Guide that explains how to homebrew with examples of new races and subclasses, with lots of notes on balancing and behind the curtain looks at how 5e was designed. And a wealth of optional rules for DMs to tweak their games.
I’d love to see a VanRichten’s Guide to Horrors that is is like Volos’ Guide but for classic horror monsters. Vampires, mummies, lichens, lychans, golems, etc. Fewer new monsters but more advice on customizing those monsters and making villains.
A 5e version of Mordenkainen‘s Magnifienct Emporium, with a wealth of new magic items, artifacts, relics, etc. Which would be a good place for the artificer.
But why stop there?
I’d love some Collector’s Editions of the Core Rulebook. Fancy covers. Maybe leatherette with a cloth bookmark or two. And gilded pages while we’re at it.
A Ruins of Castle Greyhawk dungeon book using Gygax’s original notes.
There’s also a market for fancy deluxe boxes of late. Invisible Sun, the Borg Cube, the upcoming V5 set. D&D could also do that. A super fancy boxed set product. A giant $400 Ravenloft box with five or six hardcover books (so you can pass along just the gods or lifestyle, hide the Darklords, or only bring the Core to your game), a cloth map, some reference sheets, a deck of cards, and more.
Or while we’re dreaming, maybe just having every copy of Tome of Foes come with a coupon that can be exchange for a long weekend of “anything goes” time with a celebrity of your choice. Because that’s almost as realistic as some of the ideas...
CubicsRube
Hero
This thread has really derailed. Understand that people have theor past grievances, but can we put them asode for this thread and get back on to the orginal topic?
Something i would really like to see is an alternate spell list a la shadow of the demon lord.
For those unaware, the system consists of schools of around 11 spells. Cantrips up to level 5 spells. When you level up you can choose a new spell in the school or from a different school at the ground level and work your way up. The core book has about 30 schools, and expansions add more.
From a gm perspective, this is brilliant. If you want to have a water mage enemy, choose the water school. Necromancy? Necromancer school. Artificer? Technomancy school. Etc.
From a player perspective its grest as well, because you could have a party of wizards and they would still be completely dofferent. You could have a curse and battle wizard, an air and time wizard, and a chaos and dvination wizard and they all would play extremely differently.
The thing is, extracting magic frkm existing d&d classes and replacing them with school choices is a masssive amount of work, and would need someome with the clout of wotc to test and distribute.
I know that's not going to happen, but sometimes a dream is nice eh?
Something i would really like to see is an alternate spell list a la shadow of the demon lord.
For those unaware, the system consists of schools of around 11 spells. Cantrips up to level 5 spells. When you level up you can choose a new spell in the school or from a different school at the ground level and work your way up. The core book has about 30 schools, and expansions add more.
From a gm perspective, this is brilliant. If you want to have a water mage enemy, choose the water school. Necromancy? Necromancer school. Artificer? Technomancy school. Etc.
From a player perspective its grest as well, because you could have a party of wizards and they would still be completely dofferent. You could have a curse and battle wizard, an air and time wizard, and a chaos and dvination wizard and they all would play extremely differently.
The thing is, extracting magic frkm existing d&d classes and replacing them with school choices is a masssive amount of work, and would need someome with the clout of wotc to test and distribute.
I know that's not going to happen, but sometimes a dream is nice eh?
Sacrosanct
Legend
Honestly, I’d like to see how it could be done, with the requirement that these much more complex PCs could adventure side by side with a PC made from the basic rules. I would sincerely like to see it, and that’s not me being sarcastic. Why? Because I’m struggling in my own head how to balance it, because if you give a bunch of decision points, then mathematically they would individually be less impactful than an ASI. That is, an ASI is one decision point that happens once every few levels, and is just a +1 bonus. So what would that look like if you replaced that ASI with two or three other smaller decision points.
I fully support the idea behind a more crunchy class design process for those that want it, but I think it would be a challenge to have all of that balance out with existing PCs. I would love to see what that looks like outside of a complete class rewrite, which is the only way I can see it. Balancing is much harder than people realize I think.
I fully support the idea behind a more crunchy class design process for those that want it, but I think it would be a challenge to have all of that balance out with existing PCs. I would love to see what that looks like outside of a complete class rewrite, which is the only way I can see it. Balancing is much harder than people realize I think.
CubicsRube
Hero
[MENTION=15700]Sacrosanct[/MENTION] i agree.
Ive tried to tinker with 5e as I'm sure many have, and i didnt fully appreciate how tightly interwoven everything is until i tried to change one element and realise how much it affected.
It is not at all a modular rpg, and I'm more amazed than before they've managed to balance it so well.
Ive tried to tinker with 5e as I'm sure many have, and i didnt fully appreciate how tightly interwoven everything is until i tried to change one element and realise how much it affected.
It is not at all a modular rpg, and I'm more amazed than before they've managed to balance it so well.
Tony Vargas
Legend
Even that'd be better'n what we have now....
Last edited:
Similar Threads
