D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[Minigiant]

Here's my ongoing lest of possible psion powers uses 2e, 3e, and 4e The struck out is what I'd cut. * requires telekinesis. + requires telepathy.

• clairsentience (divination)
  • Aura Sight, Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, Object Reading, Precognition Sensitivity to Psychic Impressions All-round Vision, Combat Mind, Danger Sense, Feel Light, Feel Sound, Hear Light, Know Direction, Know Location, Poison Sense, Radial Navigation, See Sound, Spirit Sense.
• psychokinesis (animating and controlling existing objects and forces)
  • Create Object*, Detonate*+, Disintegrate*+, Molecular Rearrangement+, Project Force*, Telekinesis; Animate Object*, Animate Shadow, Ballistic Attack*, Control Body*, Control Flames*, Control Light, Control Sound, Control Wind, Create Sound*, Inertial Barrier*, Levitation*, Molecular Agitation*, Molecular Manipulation*, Soften.
• psychometabolism (body-changing powers)
  • Animal Affinity**, Complete Healing, Death Field, Energy Containment, Life Draining, Metamorphosis, Shadow-form, Absorb Disease, Adrenaline Control, Aging, Biofeedback, Body Control, Body Equilibrium, Body Weaponry, Catfall, Cause Decay, Cell Adjustment, Chameleon Power, Chemical Simulation, Displacement, Double Pain, Ectoplasmic Form, Enhanced Strength, Expansion, Flesh Armor, Graft Weapon, Heightened Senses, Immovability, Lend Health, Mind Over Body, Reduction, Share Strength, Suspend Animation.
• psychoportation (teleportation variants)
  • Banishment, Probability Travel, Summon Planar Creature, Teleport, Teleport Other; Astral Projection, Dimensional Door, Dimension Walk, Dream Travel, Teleport Trigger, Time Shift, Time/Space Anchor.
• telepathy (mental communication and psychic attacks)
  • Domination+, Ejection, Fate Link+, Mass Domination+, Mindlink, Mindwipe+, Probe+, Psychic Crush+, Superior Invisibility+, Switch Personality+, Tower of Iron Will+, Attraction+, Aversion+, Awe+, Conceal Thoughts, Contact, Daydream+, Ego Whip+, Empathy+, ESP+, False Sensory Input+, Id Insinuation+, Identity Penetration+, Incarnation Awareness+, Inflict Pain+, Intellect Fortress+, Invincible Foes+, Invisibility+, Life Detection, Mental Barrier+, Mind Bar, Mind Blank+, Mind Thrust+, Phobia Amplification+, Post-hypnotic Suggestion+ Psionic Blast, Psionic Impersonation+, Psychic Messenger, Repugnance+, Send Thoughts+, Sight Link+, Sound Link+, Synaptic Static+, Taste Link+, Telepathic Projection+, Thought Shield+, Truthear+
• metacreativity (creation of mental constructs)
  • Astral Construct, Astral Seed, Concealing Amorpha, Ectoplasimic Cocoon, Force Barricade , Force Sphere, Hail of Crystals,
• metapsionics (enhancement of other psychic abilities)
  • Appraise, Aura Alteration, Empower, Psychic Clone, Psychic Surgery, Split Personality, Ultrablast, Cannabilize, Convergence, Enhancement, Gird, Intensify, Magnify, Psionic Inflation, Psionic Drain, Psionic Sense, Receptacle, Retrospection, Splice, Stasis field, Wrench.

Still cutting down

 

[cbwjm]

So why are we stuck on VSM spell components?

Can we talk about the 6-7 disciplines of psionics?

• clairsentience (divination)
• psychokinesis (animating and controlling existing objects and forces)
• psychometabolism (body-changing powers)
• psychoportation (teleportation variants)
• telepathy (mental communication and psychic attacks)
• metacreativity (creation of mental constructs)
• metapsionics (enhancement of other psychic abilities)

I SAY WE CUT psychoportation

I say we cut out everything that isn't clairsentience, psychokinesis, telepathy. These 3 are, I feel, the core areas of psychic ability when I think about them in popular media. They are often able to remotely view areas, move things with their mind, and read the thoughts and emotions of others. I'm not saying the others can't exist but I'd focus on these three areas first.

Edit: I actually think if the mystic UA had focused on these three areas (or maybe just telekinesis and telepathy) instead of having all of the different types of psionics with things like the mantles, soul knight, wujen, etc then it may have been better received as it would have been a tighter class that didn't have an option for everything.

 

[Maxperson]

Two things however, One, that would mean Innate Spellcasting (Psionic) would not be the same as using Psionics as part of your class, and it would also mean that Psionic abilities would be affected by Counterspell and Anti-Magic Fields.

Yes, the innate casting does say that you do not need material components, which is further support about what I am saying. innate only negates that one component. Not the V and S, yet with psionics those are gone as well, indicating that psionics as a whole does not use components. That is further backed up by the defunct Mystic class which did not use any components. It would seem that WotC's thinking has not changed on this part of what psionics is.

As for Counterspell and Anti-Magic fields affecting psionics, I have no issue with that. To make it something completely apart is too powerful.

 

[dave2008]

Edit: The Mystic, though abandoned, shows WotC's stance on this. They required no components, which makes sense as you aren't going to put in two opposing systems for psionics.

The UA Mystic has been replaced with a newer UA which does indeed have some psionics with components, which as you said: "...shows WotC's stance on this."

 

[Minigiant]

I say we cut out everything that isn't clairsentience, psychokinesis, telepathy. These 3 are, I feel, the core areas of psychic ability when I think about them in popular media. They are often able to remotely view areas, move things with their mind, and read the thoughts and emotions of others. I'm not saying the others can't exist but I'd focus on these three areas first.

Edit: I actually think if the mystic UA had focused on these three areas (or maybe just telekinesis and telepathy) instead of having all of the different types of psionics with things like the mantles, soul knight, wujen, etc then it may have been better received as it would have been a tighter class that didn't have an option for everything.

I think the same. The mystic did too much.

I could go with a psion with only clairsentience, psychokinesis, and telepathy.

 

[dave2008]

Ooooookay. So you guys DO think that there are two completely oppositional systems.

No I don't. I can however understand that monster stat blocks don't follow the exact same build rules as PCs and we just don't have enough information about how psionics will be eliminated. On top of that the most recent information from WotC indicated psionics will indeed have some components. I quoted the exact text.

Look, at this point we simply do not have enough information. WotC can and will do whatever they want with psionics. There is no canon or tradition holding their feat to the fire. They have free reign and nothing the have released officially so far prevents them from going in any direction in the future.

 

[dave2008]

Monsters aren't set up the same way, but the magic is still the same for monsters and PCs. A monster spellcaster still uses components and is bound by the PHB rules for spells. Psionics is no different. If monsters don't use components for their psionics, neither will PCs.

However, there are monsters that do not use components and are not psionic. The rules for monster magic and PC magic are indeed a little different. This is, I would think, is an undeniable fact, but you seem to not to believe the writing in the MM for some reason.

 

[dave2008]

It would seem that WotC's thinking has not changed on this part of what psionics is.

Except the fact the WotC changed their thinking in the most recent UA.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

I just came back to look at the thread. It's pretty long, so I started doing more scanning than reading a few pages in (always problematic since the best stuff isn't necessarily on the first couple pages). Some of you have cleared up some misunderstandings of my intent already, so I'll just confirm where I'm coming from:

-I believe dedicated Psion(icists) have a stronger presence in the Worlds of D&D than basically any other class option we don't yet have a way to represent.
-The unique nature of psionics as a power source contributes to this. Basically, it was a third supernatural power source in 1e-3e (along with arcane magic and divine magic). 4e added others, 5e mechanically eliminated significance but thematically collapsed magical spellcasting back into arcane and divine. None of the other popular unrealized classes are based on power sources with such an impactful past.
-It is generally possible to portray a witch or shaman or Wu-Jen with one of the existing classes. The classes have sufficiently accurate (often identical) "power sources" and encompass sufficient details. A Wu-Jen is a Wizard, a Shukenja (1e OA) is a Cleric, and a witch or shaman could be a Warlock, Sorcerer, or Druid, depending on what you're going for. Now--some of those really do need subclasses to better represent them--but they don't need a whole new class.
-And to bring it back to where it started, the existence of this psionic type of power is well-established in the Worlds of D&D. It is ubiquitous on Dark Sun, common in certain geographical areas of Eberron, and present on multiple iconic D&D IP monsters in the Monster Manual and other places.

If you were to look through the lore of D&D you would find plenty of psionic specialists with no way of portraying them in 5e. If you are one of the people who continues to play with settings, campaigns, or characters you began playing with in previous editions, you have no way to convert your Psion PCs or NPCs to 5e, because there is nothing that fits. This is a problem that, at this point in the edition cycle, is unique to 5e. Within a couple of years of each edition's launch you could bring a 2e Psionicist into 3.0e, 3.5e, and 4e. Now they are stuck with no where to go.

The primary purpose of the post was to focus the current energy of the topic into a direct point of discussion. Someone looking at the topics list at ENWorld isn't necessarily going to know where discussions went 20 pages into the UA Psionics thread, but taking what stood out to me as the most important thing there and putting it in a thread title makes it more visible for those who might be asking the question I was attempting to answer. Why do people want a Psion class?

You know, it's less of an appeal to tradition-- saying "psionicists existed in 2e, 3e, and 4e, so they should exist in 5e"-- as it is an appeal to continuity: "my psionic character existed in 2e, or 3e, or 4e, and so I should be able to keep playing him in 5e".

And that seems to be a recurring problem with WotC and many of their fans: they don't understand why anyone would ever want to continue their old campaign with their old characters in the new edition, and they don't understand that most players of most games consider this the default assumption of the edition cycle.

Absolutely. Continuity is huge for me in D&D. Why else buy a new edition of it, when there are dozens of other interesting RPG options out there? Because I want to take advantage of improved mechanics that are designed to represent the same worlds I've already spent an enormous amount of time working on.

 

[Maxperson]

The UA Mystic has been replaced with a newer UA which does indeed have some psionics with components, which as you said: "...shows WotC's stance on this."

Do you have a link?