D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[dave2008]

See, part of the issue with having them not use spells at all, is that many of the abilities people want are already spells. So either we rewrite spells to be the same mechanics with the numbers filed off, or the Psion is missing large chunks of abilities that people think they should have.

Random pick, Calm Emotions. That should be a thing a Psion can do. But it already exists as a spell, and so it would be difficult to make that an ability without just using the spell or copying the spell's effects.

And even if we did, we should still look at the spell, because that gives us the expected powerlevel of the ability.

Oh I agree completely. I am just playing the role of the Adversary.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

See, part of the issue with having them not use spells at all, is that many of the abilities people want are already spells. So either we rewrite spells to be the same mechanics with the numbers filed off, or the Psion is missing large chunks of abilities that people think they should have.

Random pick, Calm Emotions. That should be a thing a Psion can do. But it already exists as a spell, and so it would be difficult to make that an ability without just using the spell or copying the spell's effects.

And even if we did, we should still look at the spell, because that gives us the expected powerlevel of the ability.

Let me jump in here a bit. The method I propose is to use actual spells and make the changes within the psion class. Just like artificers cast spells a little differently, so do psions. They have a spell list that includes spells from the PHB and other sources, as well as a few unique to themselves. But when a psion casts those spells as a psion they don't use VSM (and have a couple of other thematic changes).

Also, for those that missed 3e, there was something called a "display". Psionic powers didn't require components, but when you manifested them they caused a special effect that made it clear you were manifesting a power, just like someone casting a spell. I also propose this same type of thing.

I'm currently working on a simple class write up as an example of what I'm talking about, and trying to balance making it look decent with getting it finished quickly.

 

[Perun]

When you look at the MM Drow's innate spellcasting and the Drow PC's innate spellcasting (well, not specifically with the Drow, but with later races like Aasimar, they call out that you don't need material components, and I have no reason to doubt it's not the same with Drow.), they both say they don't need material components.

This theme on the thread made me go look at the various races in 5E that have spellcasting of some sort as a racial ability. I looked at high elves and drow, forest gnomes, tieflings, aasimar, svirfneblin, genasi and tritons. Of all of them, only the svirfneblin specifically don't need material components to cast nondetection (but they also require a feat to access their racial spellcasting abilities). Most other have at least one spell that requires material components, and unless there is a general rule somewhere that I'm missing, all mentioned races need to provide them.

This was a bit of a surprise. I always (erroneously, apparently) assumed that racial spellcasting worked like spell-like abilities of previous editions, when in fact it appears to be actual spellcasting.

I can't find a version of aasimar that says it doesn't require material components to cast light, but air and earth genasi in Explorer's Guide to Wildmeount do have this clause for their racial spellcasting. Oddly enough, water genasi don't, even though create or destroy water requires a material component.

The racial ability of drow PCs (from the PH, I don't know of any other place they have been reprinted, and it hasn't been errataed, to th ebest of my knowledge) is different from drow monster entry in MM, where it says they don't require material components (both dancing lights and darkness require M components, faerie fire doesn't).

On the other hand, psionic PC races, and I know of githzerai and githyanki, form Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes, use psionics ('githzerai psionics' and 'githyanki psionics', respectively), and both explicitly say "When you cast them [i.e. spells available through this ability] with this trait, they don't require components."
I can't think of any other PC races with psionic abilities (there are kalashtar in ERftLW, but they don't have any racial psionic spellcasting ability).

So, racial spellcasting abilities are... confusing (at least the PC versions).

 

[Perun]

Let me jump in here a bit. The method I propose is to use actual spells and make the changes within the psion class. Just like artificers cast spells a little differently, so do psions. They have a spell list that includes spells from the PHB and other sources, as well as a few unique to themselves. But when a psion casts those spells as a psion they don't use VSM (and have a couple of other thematic changes).

Also, for those that missed 3e, there was something called a "display". Psionic powers didn't require components, but when you manifested them they caused a special effect that made it clear you were manifesting a power, just like someone casting a spell. I also propose this same type of thing.

This is the way I would go with psionics. Manifesting displays instead of spell components (although I never liked rainbow halos of 3e, and I was not a fan of the overuse of ectoplasm and crystals), spellcasting chasis for easier integration in the existing rules. However, it would be great if the designers paid attention to spellpoint variant in the DMG, to ensure all psion's class abilities work seamlessly with it.

I could see V and S components in psionics as a way to assist with concentration required to use the abilities in question, but these shouldn't (IMO) be required. One way could be to say that beginning psions have to use them, but as they advance in levels, they can drop them (either simultaneously, or first one, then another).

I'd go with Int-based class, even though, IIRC, the earlier version of psionics (1e, both versions in 2e) were MAD (Int, Wis, Con), but requiring highest scores in Wisdom.

One of the reasons why I'm in favour of a separate class is a separate spell list. There should be spells specific solely to the psion. I'm thinking of the former psionic attacks and defence modes here, probably others. I know this is a tradition issue, but I'm not for ignoring tradition if it isn't disruptive for the game

Another tradition-related feature I'd like to see. In (almost?) all versions of psion(icist) through editions, they were "specialists" (similar to specialist wizards), i.e. they picked their primary discipline, and most of their powers had to come from that discipline. This is something I'd like to see in the theoretical 5E version of the class. So, I wouldn't give telepathy to all psions, but would reserve this for telepaths, for example.

And, I mentioned the overuse of crystals. This was, IIRC, specific to 3(.5)e, where crystals were everywhere, form crystal swords to psycrystals, and I thought it was too much. But, then again, that's fairly easy to house rule

Just, IMO, of course

 

[Aldarc]

Let me jump in here a bit. The method I propose is to use actual spells and make the changes within the psion class. Just like artificers cast spells a little differently, so do psions. They have a spell list that includes spells from the PHB and other sources, as well as a few unique to themselves. But when a psion casts those spells as a psion they don't use VSM (and have a couple of other thematic changes).

Also, for those that missed 3e, there was something called a "display". Psionic powers didn't require components, but when you manifested them they caused a special effect that made it clear you were manifesting a power, just like someone casting a spell. I also propose this same type of thing.

I'm currently working on a simple class write up as an example of what I'm talking about, and trying to balance making it look decent with getting it finished quickly.

This could work.

I'm not opposed to a psion requiring a psionic focus (e.g., psi crystal). Maybe psions don't require material components and can use their psi crystal to bypass normal somatic and verbal components but doing so is what projects a Display.

Similar to the Artificer, I would also like to see the Psion play with the Concentration mechanic. As I wrote elsewhere:

One thing that would be worth exploring in the context of 5e would be manipulating with Concentration mechanics. If Concentration represents a mage focusing their mind on maintaining a spell, then how would or could a "mind mage" like a psion relate to it? Can psions concentrate better? Maybe on multiple things? Can psions do other things with Concentration other than focus on maintaining spells/powers? Can psions help others concentrate better? How could psions interfere with the Concentration of their foes? Could they steal spells that others are Concentrating on? Can they gain advantage on actions or abilities when their foes are using Concentration spells?

 

[Aldarc]

This is the way I would go with psionics. Manifesting displays instead of spell components (although I never liked rainbow halos of 3e, and I was not a fan of the overuse of ectoplasm and crystals), spellcasting chasis for easier integration in the existing rules. However, it would be great if the designers paid attention to spellpoint variant in the DMG, to ensure all psion's class abilities work seamlessly with it.

I could see V and S components in psionics as a way to assist with concentration required to use the abilities in question, but these shouldn't (IMO) be required. One way could be to say that beginning psions have to use them, but as they advance in levels, they can drop them (either simultaneously, or first one, then another).

These are not a bad ideas either. It may help to say that any spell that is on the psion's spell list does not require [insert component here]. That way it would not apply to other spells on other spell lists if they were to multiclass. Also I like the idea that as the psion levels up, they drop or substitute their need to use the various spell components for casting. There are a lot of thematically fun ways that you could play around with this. I would probably start with Material components as that's the most fundamental in the aesthetic. Then maybe they can use their psionic focus to bypass either V or S components until they grow beyond their need for a focus.

 

[Perun]

These are not a bad ideas either. It may help to say that any spell that is on the psion's spell list does not require [insert component here]. That way it would not apply to other spells on other spell lists if they were to multiclass. Also I like the idea that as the psion levels up, they drop or substitute their need to use the various spell components for casting. There are a lot of thematically fun ways that you could play around with this. I would probably start with Material components as that's the most fundamental in the aesthetic. Then maybe they can use their psionic focus to bypass either V or S components until they grow beyond their need for a focus.

I'd go with manifesting displays in any case. You need some sort of indicator that the psion is manifesting in order for his powers to be dispellable. Or, as an alternative, you could say that in case the psion opts to casts/manifest (the terminology is confusing) a spell without components, he gets a display instead. You could say that when not using components, the strain of the mental focus is so strong, it causes noticeable displays of psionic power, but using components helps ease this strain, and therefore no displays.

As for the components, there are a lot of ways this could be developed. You could say that Con saves to maintain concentration on a spell are easier when using components, so the DC for any such Con save is reduced by a given amount (-2? -5?), or, alternatively, that the psion gets advantage on Con saves to maintain concentration on a spell cast using components. This is similar to one of the benefits given by the War Caster feat, so a bonus to the Con save would be cumulative with the feat, while the advantage option would make the feat less valuable to psions.

One option would also be to get rid of all inexpensive material components for psion spells on a general principle, and, in case they were used, would replace them by a psionic focus by default. So, friends cantrip would never require 'a small amount of make up applied to the face as the spell is cast', but would use a psionic focus (a crystal or an orb, presumably) instead.

Building up on the theme. I could see how a version of Psionic Sorcery (from the Psionic Soul sorcerer bloodline) might work for a psion. Say it's established that the use of verbal and somatic components and psionic foci is not required for psions in order to cast their spells, and psions use them merely as aids in order to achieve the state of mind required to cast (or manifest, if you will) a spell. Then you use a version of psionic sorcery (with a different name, of course), and you get component-less manifesting. Psions could even get a bonus to the roll, in order to emphasise the point (say, at level 3 you apply one-half of your proficiency bonus to the roll).

There are a lot of possibilities here...

 

[Krachek]

I personally hold that making a spell impossible to counterspell is not the most powerful effect of removing VSM components from it.

The most powerful effect of removing VSM components is the fact that no one can tell that you're casting a spell. It is effective in combat, by making you seem like just a bystander and not a threat, but it is even more effective out of combat, in social situations.

For social there is still insight that can be used to detect shenanigan attitude.
In combat if you admit that intelligent monster can know about wizard and cleric, they probably know also about Psion, who cast « without speaking » would say the orcs.

of course it is tempting to wish, I’m the only Psion in the world, nobody understand my power and I always surprise everybody. but once the class will be official setting will have Psion as frequent as mage or sorcerer.

 

[Fenris-77]

Insight won't help you know a spell is being cast. Insight would be of some help for social situations, but it's a weak tool IMO. The real power there without VSM is in any game where magic would be appropriately illegal when used indiscriminately, especially in social situation where the nobility is concerned. If you start casting in the middle of the Duke's ball the most reasonable response from his guards and/or magical advisors is to gank you before you finish. No VSM opens up a whole bunch of options.

 

[Aldarc]

Insight won't help you know a spell is being cast. Insight would be of some help for social situations, but it's a weak tool IMO. The real power there without VSM is in any game where magic would be appropriately illegal when used indiscriminately, especially in social situation where the nobility is concerned. If you start casting in the middle of the Duke's ball the most reasonable response from his guards and/or magical advisors is to gank you before you finish. No VSM opens up a whole bunch of options.

Sure, but if manifesting your powers results in Displays, then the guards will likely still know it's you even if you aren't waving your hands around, speaking, or using material components.