D&D 5E Here's why we want a Psion class

[Guest 6801328]

Apparently not, because I never argued for psionics to be unable to be counterspelled. In fact, no less than four times, I stated the exact opposite explicitly. If you can't understand what I mean when I say, "I'm okay with psionics being able to be countered, dispelled and be subject to anti-magic," then I'm not sure what to say to you that will help you understand.

Ok, I'll try this again.

You may not think you are arguing for psionics that are immune to counterspell. You may have spent your life arguing for the opposite. You may have even argued in this thread for the opposite.

But when you say that psionics must have no VSM you are making an argument, whether you intend to or not, for non-counterspellable psionics. By RAW.

In any event, and more significantly, I said nothing in my post about this particular issue. I wrote:

One cannot dictate what another thinks he/she is arguing for, but one can assess what another is actually arguing for.

And that remains absolutely true. One might make an incorrect assessment, but one can still do it.

 

[Umbran]

You don't need to speak. You don't need bat poop. And you don't need to wiggle your fingers in a certain manner. If other systems use those things, they use systems that I would not enjoy and don't make much sense.

The fact that it comes from the mind does not imply that it does so without assistance and support. It isn't like humans (or other races) are particularly good at complete and total concentration of their minds without various practices.

As for "making sense" in fantasy magical systems... I think you miss the mark. What's called for is thematic appropriateness, not "sense". None of this makes a darned lick of sense if you look at it more than skin deep.

Bat poop? That doesn't seem thematically appropriate for psi. But crystals or other foci seem quite reasonable. Similar for chanted mantras, or body controls that may require movements (tai chi, for example, could easily be a psionic support practice).

Because TV, not because psionics.

Katherine Kurtz's Deryni novels are probably the best written portrayal of psi as the magic of a fantasy world - and the characters very frequently make use of various meditative foci, physical practices, and spoken words. And, many of the workings the characters perform are ritual in nature, because the attention and focus needed to gather significant power is difficult on a six-second timescale...

 

[dave2008]

I use full caster for lack of a better term. Psions are just another form of "spell" user. The powers are just another way to present spells.

But it could be another type of magic user. A class can have magic abilities that are not "spells." Turn Undead, lay of hands, divine smite, arcane charge, rage, etc. I think it could be more interesting to make a Psion that is all about the class features and not casting spells.

If you are using the term full caster" in place of "full psionic" (or full magic) then it is confusing. Because I don't see what a Psion has to cast "spells" at all.

 

[Krachek]

Actually psionic made by monster are targetable by dispel magic. So I hope that a charm person effect or a hold person effect made by by a Psion will be dispellable.

A sorcerer can already be shielded against counterspell by using subtle casting. Due to range and visibility counterspell is not so effective as we could think, so no VSM for Psion won’t make such a difference.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

Actually psionic made by monster are targetable by dispel magic. So I hope that a charm person effect or a hold person effect made by by a Psion will be dispellable.

A sorcerer can already be shielded against counterspell by using subtle casting. Due to range and visibility counterspell is not so effective as we could think, so no VSM for Psion won’t make such a difference.

So a class specific feature pretty much meant to counter it means that it's fine if an entire way of casting uses the same rules?

 

[Krachek]

So a class specific feature pretty much meant to counter it means that it's fine if an entire way of casting uses the same rules?

I just mean that counterspell is somewhere already nullified by innate spell casting of monster, sorcerer subtle casting, exceeding range, invisible caster, classes or subclasses abilities that look like spell but aren’t, and not forget that all counterspell is a complete gamble, so yes psionic can just grow up the list of situation where counterspell is useless.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

I just mean that counterspell is somewhere already nullified by innate spell casting of monster, sorcerer subtle casting, exceeding range, invisible caster, classes or subclasses abilities that look like spell but aren’t, and not forget that all counterspell is a complete gamble, so yes psionic can just grow up the list of situation where counterspell is useless.

Alright then.

So, outside of other psionics, what would counter them?

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I've said very specifically multiple times in this thread and others that I am okay with visible effects, sounds and such to let people know when a psionic ability is being used. Almost every other person who has talked about no VSM has also said the same. We are not trying to keep these powers secret with the lack of VSM.

Counterspell works just fine with a lack of VSM if you can detect the casting of a "spell." Therefore, we are not arguing for Counterspell to be ineffective.

Currently the rules state that without V.S.M. components, the casting of a spell cannot be detected. Therefore it could not be counterspelled.

Perhaps introducing a new component that psionic abilities manifest when used, is the answer if you want spells with no VSM components to be counterspellable. Whether it reveals itself as the psychic's eyes glowing, ectoplasm covering the psion, or everyone within 60ft tasting pineapple, it provides a cue that psychic shenanigans are afoot.

I use full caster for lack of a better term. Psions are just another form of "spell" user. The powers are just another way to present spells.

So when you say "full caster" you are referring to what a class spends most of its actions doing, and how it contributes to the party success, rather than needing the traditional 9-spell level structure of a wizard or cleric?

So a class that used its magical/psychic abilities most of the time (as opposed to using skills and weapons for example) would be one that you consider a full caster, whether those were from 9-levels of spell slots, or from a different power structure. - Its the fact that the power of the class is rooted in those special abilities like a cleric's is in their spells, rather than a paladin, whose special powers are combined with more mundane actions?

 

[Fenris-77]

Alright then.

So, outside of other psionics, what would counter them?

My choice would be to use rules for fatigue for exhaustion, maybe coupled with concentration rolls or some such as the gate, rather than one particular spell. A spell, I'll add, that is already over emphasized because D&D is bereft of countermagic almost entirely beyond that, by design I suppose. Another salient point might be that many, many full casters don't have access to counterspell anyway, so it's not as though it acts as system-wide limiter on spell casting.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Here's an idea: your die can't be below d4, but each time you roll a 4 you gain a level of exhaustion.