Hero 5th ed Vs M&M

[SuperGamera]

I have been out of Superhero RPGs for about 10 years, when I played (and enjoyed) 4th edition Champions. Can anyone comment on how 5th ed Hero System plays relative to older versions? Is combat any quicker, and are skills priced cheaper relative to other powers?

Also, can anyone compare 5th ed Hero System and Mutants & Masterminds in practice? M&M looks very good, but I'm curious as to how well it handles Superhero roleplaying in action.

Thanks for your comments!

 

[Thanee]

Havn't seen Champions 5th, but I know Champions 4th quite well.

M&M works very good. It cuts down the complexity in a very reasonable manner and adds a few very cool mechanics (like M&M damage), which work great for superhero games.

It is not as powerful as Champions in the way, that you can do almost everything with it, but it's close enough and a bit lighter on the rules side, which certainly helps with running a more fluent game.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Psion]

I have been out of Superhero RPGs for about 10 years, when I played (and enjoyed) 4th edition Champions. Can anyone comment on how 5th ed Hero System plays relative to older versions? Is combat any quicker, and are skills priced cheaper relative to other powers?

Also, can anyone compare 5th ed Hero System and Mutants & Masterminds in practice? M&M looks very good, but I'm curious as to how well it handles Superhero roleplaying in action.

Well, I don't have 5th edition revised, but I have 5th edition.

The basic conventions of the game don't change, so if you had trouble with combat speed in fourth, you still will.

There were many refinements and improvements to the various powes and abilities, and I like that the put common examples in the sidebars. Some of the power and advantage changes are contraversial, though.

I don't think the skill scale changed much.

One thing I didn't like is that they totally nerfed the package deal rules. I know they needed some work, but IMO they sort of threw the baby out with the bathwater.


M&M is a bit more lightweight and faster that Hero. But if you are used to the precision modeling of powers in Hero, you might see some of M&M's approaches as shortcuts and abstractions. One of the central attributes of buying powers in M&M is that every power can be grouped, and the benefit of doing so is highly advantageous, so most do.

 

[Capellan]

Do you want a game where everything is thoroughly documented and statted out? Hero is for you.

Do you prefer a game where you have to handwave a bit of stuff, but you get faster gameplay? Go for MnM.

IMO, they are both great games, but with different strengths.

 

[Felon]

Combat is certainly not faster.

Skills are cheap compared to powers. Then again they were in the previous edition (1990), so if you somehow thought they were overpriced then, then they still are now.

 

[WayneLigon]

...Can anyone comment on how 5th ed Hero System plays relative to older versions? ... Also, can anyone compare 5th ed Hero System and Mutants & Masterminds in practice? M&M looks very good, but I'm curious as to how well it handles Superhero roleplaying in action.

5th Ed and 5th Ed Revised are virtually identical to Champions 4rth with the exception of a few tweaks here and there and a higher suggested starting power level for supers. The new version of Hero basically tries to go the GURPS route in that it also discusses and uses the various systems that in the 4rth ed days would have been in Fantasy Hero, Space Hero, etc. You can take a look at the Champions Sidekick, which is a barebones 'just the rules' book, to see what changed. Costs virtually remain the same, except for one or two things. They did add a significant advantage that lets you mega-scale movement powers, so you can do a speedster much cheaper than before without having to buy a tremendous amount of Non-combat movement.

Combat and skills work so similarly that it's almost invisible. There are some tweaks and enhancements to some systems, but nothing you'd really notice or miss all that much.

Mutants and Masterminds, in my mind, handles comic heroes better than Champions does, and this is coming from someone that ran Champions games since 2nd ed. For many years it was my #1 favorite system for supers until I really got into M&M.

M&M combats go much faster, and I was someone who could do Champions combat between entire superteams of 6-7 folks plus sidekicks and NPCS in less than an hour. Powers work more fluidly. There is no nonsense about having to stat out flashlights and pistols. Using Hero Points and the ability to expend extra effort for one-round-use of enhancements more closely reflects the way comics supers use their powers than Champions does. Everything you need, and I mean everything, is in the core rulesbook. The supplements are nice but not nessesary for play; they don't add tons of new powers and feats and Stuff. The only thing I wish they would do would be put together a character generator.

 

[SuperGamera]

Skills are cheap compared to powers. Then again they were in the previous edition (1990), so if you somehow thought they were overpriced then, then they still are now.

Skills were cheap combared to high Active Cost powers, but not compared to alternatives like Life Support (where being immune to disease costs as much as a skill). The cost of a "skill-based" character always seemed high compared to the effect.

The initial release of M&M was the same way, IMO, but they later offered alternatives to the cost of skill points. Plus, one point gives you training in a skill, so you can boost it with attributes (unlike the 3 points required in Hero 4th).

 

[SuperGamera]

Thank you for all the quick responses! There seem to be a lot of good reports about M&M. Has anyone found a scenario or setting where they would have preferred Hero to M&M?

 

[philreed]

M&M combats go much faster

Much faster. M&M sometimes gives me that old MSH feeling. Completely different type of game but something about it triggers nostalgia.

 

[Capellan]

Thank you for all the quick responses! There seem to be a lot of good reports about M&M. Has anyone found a scenario or setting where they would have preferred Hero to M&M?

Well, I still think that Hero's character creation is (if you know the system) more fully featured. You have to kind of eyeball a lot of stuff in MnM and say "that seems about right" -- Hero is so comprehensive on that front, it's scary. You can do everything in MnM that you can do in Hero, but you need to make a lot more judgement calls to do it.

And I admit, I like playing with Hero's massive toolkit of stuff

One thing I will say about Hero -- their supplements are top notch. Even if you play MnM, books like 'Viper' are worth getting for plundering and conversion. (and wincing at the nasty mechanical tricks they use with some of the NPCs)