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D&D General Heroes of Myth and Legend

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, some games have used that, but I always thought it was not all that informative of what is actually going on.
I remember one that did something like it... was the Dying Earth RPG and not quite a 5 point roshambo
(persuade is social attack and rebuff is defend)
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Analytical is overcoming a feint by recognizing it is a feint .. direct is just ignoring the fient.

There are generally only subtle differences between Responsive and Analytical (responsive is more immediate) or between Chaotic and Deceptive. Their might be differences in degree of domination.

Technically you can go with just 3, Direct, Responsive and Deceptive. (just as one can play 3 or 5 or more point roshambo)

A wild flurry of attacks might be characteristically Chaotic and if you respond you generally only stop one of them well but if you attack direct you interrupt them all. A wild flurry of attacks is not readable by Analysis and wont likely figure it out.

A given combatant only technically needs to use 2 of them to be roughly effective and characterize their fighting style. For instance. The Incredible hulk would almost always use Direct or Chaotic, but would you call anything he did deceptive?

Analytical might even be seen as using what you did a moment ago to predict what you are doing now.
I guess, its just not so easy to see it as mapping to the specific action in the game world. I am OK with that, OTOH if we are using feats (powers) then that sort of tells you how you act. Granted, 'Basic Attack' is not very descriptive, but in HoML at least it is something like "You make a basic attack with your rapier. This is a DEX weapon, so the check is rapier proficiency and DEX, and most likely the attack is against REF. Likewise you defend "I parry with my rapier using Vicious Riposte. OK, that's rapier and DEX again, and since it is a FEAT you might get better than baseline results (but getting enhanced results would cost a power point).

So CURRENTLY you would always like to use a FEAT as a defense, but it might sometimes make more sense to use a knack, like "I dodge it!" would presumably be a straight up Acrobatic situation.
 


Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
I guess, its just not so easy to see it as mapping to the specific action in the game world.
Technically the player could describe how they do it and say how what they feel they are emphasizing at the moment or the dm could analyse the description or just let the player select one (like I attack and do it this way)

Combat rounds of 1 attack sequence as defined in fencing I seem to recall are only about 2 seconds. A normal fencing speed then is like 3 attacks in 4e :p the ranger quickly pipes in with "twin strike and a minor attack" LOL
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Another component is basically how much you are risking... on your gambit.
The Dying Earth system merged that in...

I differentiate it somewhat, as can be direct but cautious or bold but responsive. (even though the most common combos might be opposite of that).
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
If one wanted to detail heavily one could allow an attack to be a mixture.... and include a tactic on ones movement as a separate thing. I am swinging my weapon direct but moving deceptively. Or allow a mixture of more than one my weapon attack is a feint but I analysed where he considers his vulnerable spot last round.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
it!" would presumably be a straight up Acrobatic situation.
In Runequest a parry vs dodge choice was a distinction of parry can only affect one attack (one might define a subtle dodge that act the same) where as the normal dodge would affect multiple attacks and it sacrifices your attack (all out defense in 4e?).

Setting oneself up for next exchange might be a default goal for a defense too and spending extra effort might allow you to resolve that benefit immediately. In 4e when opponent misses you you may do this thing.

One might be able to get clues from weapon types... opponent is using an axe they probably cannot do more subtle deceptive attack sequence as well based on it ... but what if they diverted their attack to another opponent entirely?
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
If you need to map to specific actions? maybe flurry, strike, parry, feint, scan for openings (* might combine with drawing back).
 

In Runequest a parry vs dodge choice was a distinction of parry can only affect one attack (one might define a subtle dodge that act the same) where as the normal dodge would affect multiple attacks and it sacrifices your attack (all out defense in 4e?).

Setting oneself up for next exchange might be a default goal for a defense too and spending extra effort might allow you to resolve that benefit immediately. In 4e when opponent misses you you may do this thing.

One might be able to get clues from weapon types... opponent is using an axe they probably cannot do more subtle deceptive attack sequence as well based on it ... but what if they diverted their attack to another opponent entirely?
Yeah, well, if I chop you with an axe you probably aren't parrying with your rapier either, lol. I mean, my thinking is sort of a bit like DW, you describe your defensive measures, either in terms of using a feat, or simply a more basic action like dodging or parrying, and the GM is going to decide exactly what sort of check is required in order to avoid damage. I think we have to establish some conventions that we can codify a little better, but mostly so things don't just devolve down to making your 'best move' every time...
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Yeah, well, if I chop you with an axe you probably aren't parrying with your rapier either, lol.
hey these are superheroes and most levels with magic weapons they might exactly do that or they might subtly side deflect the down swing attack and pull up into high stance that makes it miss or smash it into the dirt or push it over my head (down swings and side swings low or high in old lost worlds terms are adjusted for with a responsive) .... or smack aside the axe users hand or disrupt their stance with that rapier. And the axe user might do some insane swing around where he is expecting to miss and catch you on the back stroke. Axes basically imply Wild/Direct are the most likely focus meaning you might get most advantage hitting with a direct attack and interrupting their attack, or responsively defending including a duck/jump/sidestep/parry. The axeman might be attempting to trip up the enemy by grabbing the enemies leg with a low thrust and pull. An attack that sets up the enemy for their next attack.

I mean, my thinking is sort of a bit like DW, you describe your defensive measures, either in terms of using a feat, or simply a more basic action like dodging or parrying, and the GM is going to decide exactly what sort of check is required in order to avoid damage. I think we have to establish some conventions that we can codify a little better, but mostly so things don't just devolve down to making your 'best move' every time...
The advantage of a system like I mentioned there is 5 general types of attack if you always pick rock well... someone is going to figure that out... and you have very good chance of failing most of the time unless someone always chooses scissors.

*repetitive, I hit it with my sword is not just boring its intrinsically a bad idea or atleast a worse one. and you might get things like. I aim for the best opening (a responsive attack), I feint where he was hurt last attack (a deceptive maneuver with context).

Does your action, deliver the goods now, set up for the next action or some combination?
 
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hey these are superheroes and most levels with magic weapons they might exactly do that or they might subtly side deflect the down swing attack and pull up into high stance that makes it miss or smash it into the dirt or push it over my head (down swings and side swings low or high in old lost worlds terms are adjusted for with a responsive) .... or smack aside the axe users hand or disrupt their stance with that rapier. And the axe user might do some insane swing around where he is expecting to miss and catch you on the back stroke. Axes basically imply Wild/Direct are the most likely focus meaning you might get most advantage hitting with a direct attack and interrupting their attack, or responsively defending including a duck/jump/sidestep/parry. The axeman might be attempting to trip up the enemy by grabbing the enemies leg with a low thrust and pull. An attack that sets up the enemy for their next attack.


The advantage of a system like I mentioned there is 5 general types of attack if you always pick rock well... someone is going to figure that out... and you have very good chance of failing most of the time unless someone always chooses scissors.

*repetitive, I hit it with my sword is not just boring its intrinsically a bad idea or atleast a worse one. and you might get things like. I aim for the best opening (a responsive attack), I feint where he was hurt last attack (a deceptive maneuver with context).

Does your action, deliver the goods now, set up for the next action or some combination?
Well, when you are talking about conditions and effects, and interactions with other powers, potentially, then you are definitely looking at some real complexity. That was how 4e avoided the trap to a large extent. I mean, you you DID do the same stuff over and over, but under different circumstances, and you probably didn't do the same EXACT thing every round. I was aiming, on the OFFENSE side to work that by just having the really good riders and enhanced effects be gated by power points. You can do well without them, but at some point you will pull out variations. Also if you set pretty different values for FORT/REF/WILL on the monsters, that kind of forces people to change up pretty often.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, when you are talking about conditions and effects,
As you are having active defenses you will need that on both attacks (as normal) but also on defenses.
A defense should have an effect other than the snooze of stops an attack.

The detail on defense in 4e normally only gets revealed in 4e rarely for instance when you spent an extra effort... ie opponents attack misses and triggers some effect because of your stance or power.

The detail increase we get from choosing a defense method is what I think you are seeing.

and interactions with other powers, potentially, then you are definitely looking at some real complexity
The core Interactions I have been mentioning are fairly basic ie they can be like Rock Paper Scissors Spock Lizard. (which classically are (win lose or draw) pre-application of the detail in the affects achieved. On a draw conflicting abilities cancel or create simultaneous success conditions this is where you get power interactions.

Resolution could even be diceless with perhaps no effect on a tie or both are affected by each other's power. (or heroes advantage granting a win on a tie so that we have the fun target of 2 out of 3 aint bad) if you make them less absolute and just a bonus on to hit and bonus on effect this actually adds complexity ironically. (perhaps call it advantage/straight/disadvantage)

Thought: the hero could switch heros advantage to either attack or defense. In heroes make all the rolls Heros get 66/33 on their attacks or defenses and the other is 50/50.
Which is basically 4e target numbers rendered in a diceless fashion.

That was how 4e avoided the trap to a large extent. I mean, you you DID do the same stuff over and over,
I think at-wills should be more situational in value, wizards got to play a bit of rock paper scissors but once you figured out the enemies worst defense it was done.

but under different circumstances, and you probably didn't do the same EXACT thing every round.
Mayhaps it is effectively a detail that doesnt show and is arguably condensed into "did you roll well or not." you rolled well you played rock and they did scissors.

But I do think for defense rolls to feel good they need more effects.
 
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Yeah, so, maybe we should get more concrete with that.... I'm going to put together some PCs. And then we'll see what happens when they go trick-or-treat! ;) Maybe they will live to Thanksgiving! :devilish::devilish::devilish:
 


Well, I have put together a bit of a character sheet. It isn't done yet, and it is far from amazing. Also there isn't really a way to SAVE it, currently. I did have, in 1.0 days, a Calc sheet that really worked. It still does, but things have evolved, so not using that anymore. I looked into what is required to create a roll20 character sheet, UGH! I really don't know where this is leading, but quite frankly I'd MUCH MUCH rather have a system where we can import and export data for ourselves, which none of the commercial VTTs is going to ever allow (they are all pretty much based on charging you money to let you build characters, they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot). Anyway, I'll post it, and a compact representation of the actual parameters of a character which I can turn into a populated version, pretty soon. Maybe we can make a quick tool! Heck, Google Meet is not that far off from being a pretty good VTT! lol.
 

Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
Well, I have put together a bit of a character sheet. It isn't done yet, and it is far from amazing. Also there isn't really a way to SAVE it, currently. I did have, in 1.0 days, a Calc sheet that really worked. It still does, but things have evolved, so not using that anymore. I looked into what is required to create a roll20 character sheet, UGH! I really don't know where this is leading, but quite frankly I'd MUCH MUCH rather have a system where we can import and export data for ourselves, which none of the commercial VTTs is going to ever allow (they are all pretty much based on charging you money to let you build characters, they're not going to shoot themselves in the foot). Anyway, I'll post it, and a compact representation of the actual parameters of a character which I can turn into a populated version, pretty soon. Maybe we can make a quick tool! Heck, Google Meet is not that far off from being a pretty good VTT! lol.
hmmmm there are ways of importing into maptools (can import dnd4e sheets which were post processed right), and from what I hear Foundry should have something similar in the works. Foundry has a buy the app once for 50 dollars then the rest is gravy (at the moment)
 

hmmmm there are ways of importing into maptools (can import dnd4e sheets which were post processed right), and from what I hear Foundry should have something similar in the works. Foundry has a buy the app once for 50 dollars then the rest is gravy (at the moment)
Yeah, I have a good deal of experience with MapTool. It has its good (great!) points, and in other ways it is truly hideous. The scripting is just a nightmare. If building a web page that does what you want is a 5, then building a maptool macro that is non-trivial is an 11. The actual map display part of the thing (albeit it has its own UX issues) is second to none, but from what I hear it is also pretty much dead in terms of any kind of further development. Its a shame, the thing really does kick ass. It was like 90% of the way to nirvana and then they just ran out of steam. I think the version that they they are on now is the same version that was current EIGHT YEARS AGO. lol.

There was a fork for a while that looked promising, but...

At some point I just tire of all the hard to work around stuff, and I'm not that confident in any of the other offerings. The MAIN problem is, they all want to lock you in. Its like Roll20, even if you pay the $100/yr 'pro' license fee there's no such thing as character import or export, nothing. At least I can make a character sheet that in some sense works with outside data. Maybe we will need to use roll20 for whatever, talking, rolling dice, showing an image of a map, whatever. It does that OK. The problem I have now is, just to make one character takes an hour of building attributes and setting them and whatnot, and even then the result isn't great. I just want type it in a text editor and be done with it! lol.
 

/CHARACTER
/VERSION 1.0 VERSION/
/NAME Joe Knight NAME/ /LEVEL 1 LEVEL/ /CALLING knight CALLING/ /SPECIES Human SPECIES/ /VISION VISION/ /FATE positive FATE/
/DESCRIPTION Big dumb guy in a tin can. DESCRIPTION/ /SIZE SIZE/
/ATTRIBUTES
/STRENGTH Strong STRENGTH/
/CONSTITUTION Above Average CONSTITUTION/
/DEXTERITY Average DEXTERITY/
/INTELLIGENCE Average INTELLIGENCE/
/WISDOM Average WISDOM/
/CHARISMA Average CHARISMA/
ATTRIBUTES/
/KNACKS
/ACROBATICS ACROBATICS/
/ARCANA ARCANA/
/ATHLETICS checked ATHLETICS/
/BLUFF BLUFF/
/DIPLOMACY DIPLOMACY/
/ENGINEERING ENGINEERING/
/HEALING HEALING/
/HISTORY checked HISTORY/
/INSIGHT INSIGHT/
/INTIMIDATION INTIMIDATION/
/LEADERSHIP checked LEADERSHIP/
/NATURE NATURE/
/PERCEPTION PERCEPTION/
/RELIGION RELIGION/
/STEALTH STEALTH/
/STREETWISE STREETWISE/
/SURVIVAL checked SURVIVAL/
/THIEVERY THIEVERY/
KNACKS/
/PASSIVEPERCEPTION PASSIVEPERCEPTION/ /HITPOINTS HITPOINTS/ /MAXHITPOINTS MAXHITPOINTS/ /SPEED SPEED/
/PASSIVEINSIGHT PASSIVEINSIGHT/ /HEALINGVALUE HEALINGVALUE/ /ENCUMBRANCE ENCUMBRANCE/
/INITIATIVE INITIATIVE/ /POWER POWER/ /MAXPOWER MAXPOWER/ /LOAD LOAD/ /MAXLOAD MAXLOAD/
/DAMAGEREDUCTION DAMAGEREDUCTION/ /WEALTH Above Average WEALTH/ /WEALTHBONUS WEALTHBONUS/
/PERSONALITY
/ATTRIBUTE /ATTRIBUTENAME Strength: ATTRIBUTENAME/ /ATTRIBUTEVALUE I never doubt or question myself. ATTRIBUTEVALUE/ ATTRIBUTE/
/ATTRIBUTE /ATTRIBUTENAME Weakness: ATTRIBUTENAME/ /ATTRIBUTEVALUE I don't listen to other people. ATTRIBUTEVALUE/ ATTRIBUTE/
/ATTRIBUTE /ATTRIBUTENAME Goal: ATTRIBUTENAME/ /ATTRIBUTEVALUE Defeat the enemies of the Protectors. ATTRIBUTEVALUE/ ATTRIBUTE/
PERSONALITY/
/BACKGROUND
/BACKGROUNDITEM
/BACKGROUNDELEMENT Birth BACKGROUNDELEMENT/
/BACKGROUNDVALUE Omen BACKGROUNDVALUE/
/BACKGROUNDTEXT
Birds fell dead from the sky when Joe was born. This is rumored to foretell a terrible misfortune which will befall him.
BACKGROUNDTEXT/
BACKGROUNDITEM/
/BACKGROUNDITEM
/BACKGROUNDELEMENT Occupation BACKGROUNDELEMENT/
/BACKGROUNDVALUE Soldier BACKGROUNDVALUE/
/BACKGROUNDTEXT
Joe is a junior member of the Protectors; though not a knight he aspires to be one soon.
BACKGROUNDTEXT/
BACKGROUNDITEM/
/BACKGROUNDITEM
/BACKGROUNDELEMENT Society BACKGROUNDELEMENT/
/BACKGROUNDVALUE Nobility BACKGROUNDVALUE/
/BACKGROUNDTEXT
Although Joe's family are not particularly prominent, they are an old landed family.
BACKGROUNDTEXT/
BACKGROUNDITEM/
/BACKGROUNDITEM
/BACKGROUNDELEMENT Geography BACKGROUNDELEMENT/
/BACKGROUNDVALUE Village BACKGROUNDVALUE/
/BACKGROUNDTEXT
Joe grew up in the country village which adjoins his family's small estate. He knows little of life in the outside world.
BACKGROUNDTEXT/
BACKGROUNDITEM/
/BACKGROUNDITEM
/BACKGROUNDELEMENT Bonds BACKGROUNDELEMENT/
/BACKGROUNDVALUE Protectors BACKGROUNDVALUE/
/BACKGROUNDTEXT
As a member of the Protectors, Joe is well-acquainted with some of the hierarchy of the order, who see him as a solid recruit who has their support.
BACKGROUNDTEXT/
BACKGROUNDITEM/
BACKGROUND/
/PROFICIENCIES
/PROFICIENCY arming sword PROFICIENCY/
/PROFICIENCY lance PROFICIENCY/
/PROFICIENCY dagger PROFICIENCY/
/PROFICIENCY mace PROFICIENCY/
PROFICIENCIES/
/BOONS
/BOON Mighty Defender BOON/
/BOON Expert Rider BOON/
/BOON Forceful Defender BOON/
/BOON Student of the Sword BOON/
BOONS/
/EQUIPMENT
/ITEM arming sword ITEM/
/ITEM mail armor ITEM/
/ITEM shield ITEM/
/ITEM tabard ITEM/
EQUIPMENT/
CHARACTER/

This actually renders. :) Although it lacks any ability to calculate all the derived values, I don't think THAT is actually real hard. I have a theory about how to write a fairly modest Javascript library that will basically just let you drop in a function to represent basically any element. So, if those functions are in GCP storage buckets, like the current HOML HTML file is, then I just need to create a convention of what the URL would be for any arbitrary function that represents any specific "thing" that can be on a character sheet. The function just fills in and does whatever calculations. If the 'thing' adds +1 to your Damage Reduction, well that's a pretty small amount of Javascript! See what I mean?

Beyond that, there's a kick-ass Dice Roller library that can take a Javascript object as 'context' and then you can type stuff like '2D8+STRBONUS' or whatever, and it will roll it all for you and look up bonuses, etc. You can add functions too, so you could BASICALLY tell it to roll an attack, with a bit of cleverness, which can be simplified with a bit of UX wizardry.

So, if you had a page that had all that logic on it, you don't need to build up some fancy server side at all. And then its actually really easy to put together the data for all these 'things', like feats, because I ALREADY HAVE IT, its all in the hairball source of the rules! I can render it to XML or JSON or whatever and drop it in a bucket, and a character sheet can find it...
 

Honestly, I could attach all the data to the rules themselves, lol. Just put the hairball source in a bucket. I transpiled a good chunk of Hairball itself into Javascript with the GWT transpiler. Its a bit tricky, but really there's no reason the Javascript version couldn't grab the rules, turn them into a database of feats, boons, callings, etc. on the spot, look up a feat, and tell you what it says, display it on your sheet, and generate dice rolls for your character using it. Probably a little ambitious, but the display part is probably well within reach with a few days work.
 

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