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Heroes of Neverwinter as 5e Preview?

[MENTION=83805]ggroy[/MENTION] - the fighter is the clear tank

I have read on the Atari forums that some people don't use the fighter anymore, presumably because they don't have marks or other complaints. Instead they double up on clerics, which also solves any healing problem you might have.

While generally I've had minor to no problem with healing, a few missions have annoyed me and made me close facebook and thus quit the adventure and try again later after I've built up my healing potions again. Trip or Trap, the 5th level Halloween mission did that.

Also regarding interaction, there's a chat window? Never seen it. As for being a spectator, well, that's hit or miss. I've only ever been able to help a friend once, and only been a spectator like 4 or 5 times, tops.
 

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I heard the same

I have read on the Atari forums that some people don't use the fighter anymore, presumably because they don't have marks or other complaints. Instead they double up on clerics, which also solves any healing problem you might have.

While generally I've had minor to no problem with healing, a few missions have annoyed me and made me close facebook and thus quit the adventure and try again later after I've built up my healing potions again. Trip or Trap, the 5th level Halloween mission did that.

Also regarding interaction, there's a chat window? Never seen it. As for being a spectator, well, that's hit or miss. I've only ever been able to help a friend once, and only been a spectator like 4 or 5 times, tops.

I've heard the same but they can be incredibly useful as long as you keep an eye on what they can do.

You get the choice to be able to charge as one of those powers which allows the fighter to once per encounter move further than normal and on occasion this allows them to take the fight to enemies who are often either out of reach and just as often using ranged attacks of either magic or ranged weapons (including the Ranger which is an npc class so far!).

Been a spectator a couple of times with the options to cut loose some buff effects but only a handful for the entire adventure but you can communicate with the player using your character and I've been guilty of back seat driving although it was intended to be helpful!

I've run games more often with either no wizard (extra cleric for more healing!) and no rogue (extra wizard for more ranged attacks but at the cost of having noone to unlock chests or doors which is annoying as this ha become more prevalent in the last month or so where it wasn't necessary!) but it depends on your taste and what characters you can get access to.

You can't employ 1st level character once you reach 2nd level or higher and treasure is a little low considering the amount you end up paying when you have no friendly npc characters to call upon in addition to the extra healing potions you pay for "just in case" (Read definitely needed for just such a case!).
 
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One of each at will per class.
Thief - Sly Flourish/Basic Ranged Attack (Striker)
Fighter - Steel Serpent Strike/Basic Ranged Attack (Defender)
Cleric - Righteous Might/Basic Ranged Attack (Leader)
Wizard - Magic Missile/Basic Ranged Attack (Controller)

???

Ow.

I'd appreciate a little more variety in basic attacks. I assume there's only one "thief" build - sly scoundrel. (Incidentally, the "thief" doesn't have Sly Flourish, so I'm guessing that's a rogue with the wrong name. But that's a miniscule issue.)

The cleric and wizard are the ones I have the biggest issue with. I assume the cleric is using Righteous Brand (even if it's called Righteous Might)... so where's the option for Lance of Faith? The wizard is even worse; no AoE at-will and no controlling at-will like Ray of Frost. :(

With basic attacks, at-wills, encounter, utility, daily's and magic items all added together by 10th level, most PC's have a LOT more than 10 options.

I keep forgetting about magic items. :)

The 15 minute adventuring day! I forgot about that one. File away as a "secondary" benefit of this format. Everyone has encounter powers. 15 min adventuring day is TOTALLY gone, you can game, and game, and game, it all resets with EACH room/encounter. I left it out, but they have an energy component in HoN that needs to recharge before you can start your next adventure. Energy seems like something totally pointed at a CRPG. No random/wandering encounters. This is a GOOD call out, at least insofar as it would add value to a story.

Perhaps, but if you can't heal between encounters, it's still promoting the 15 minute day.

The 15MD is caused by two factors, one being daily resource management, and the other being not controlling for that. In 2e and 3e, the daily resources were spells and hit points (spells being the best way to restore hit points). In 4e healing surges and daily powers are the daily resources instead, with encounters giving PCs a "bridge" for when you are tapped out of daily powers. Even so, 4e can have a 15MD issue, if the players always want to be at full-strength and try to take an extended rest after every encounter.

Fortunately, there are ways of dealing with this. "Random encounters" are a bad name but a good concept; they don't have to be "random". They just have to be present but unaccounted for, and can show up repeatedly to threaten PCs who insist on resting too often. Naturally, multiple simultaneous encounters can take on groups that have holed up and are resting after only one encounter, on the grounds that you're supposed to face X encounters per day, and you will! And then there's time-relevant plot events, etc. The problem can be solved, but it's still there to be solved.

When you say "reset", do you mean you full heal between rooms? Because if hit points are a daily resource, you still have the 15MD issue. After an encounter or two, PCs will want to hole up and heal (and apparently nothing stops this, although that's a video game issue and not a 5e issue). On the other hand, if PCs are essentially getting an extended rest between each room, then each encounter is a day, and each encounter power is really a daily power.

Out of curiosity, did you play in the 1e days?

No. I started with 2e.

I did, and it was different then. You had very little access to magic items.

Same in 2e IME.

Making them more rare made them more magical.

2e made no attempt to balance magic items. More modern game systems have to take that into account. If you have three parties, one with magic items below the standards, one with items at the standard, and one above the standard, you're going to have a problem. I use inherent bonuses in my campaign in part to minimize the issue.

I'm not saying that in 1e or 2e you didn't get enough items, or you always got too many, I'm saying you couldn't tell because item balance wasn't in the rules. I would expect a 4e or 5e game to take that into account. Perhaps it's best to make items rare for flavor and balance reasons, or perhaps everyone should be festooned with level-appropriate items, but either way I expect the game designers to pick a standard. (I would prefer fewer items myself, but the most important thing is for item distribution to be predictable by level.)

You played to SURVIVE, and if you did, you kept what you earned.

XP vs other rewards. IMO the reward was gaining XP. Items were just ... there. (In 3.x, it got worse, since you had to have items.)

The difference between 1, 3, 6, 10 was CLEARLY noticeable, but wasn't THAT BIG of a deal.

I don't see how having a difference in THAC0 and hit points of 9 and, say, 45 hp, could be considered a small deal. That's huge, even without taking items into account.

If you had a party of a 4th, 2nd, 2nd, and 1st level characters, it was not "Monte Haul" to have a 4th along with you on the adventure. Was he better? A little. BUT you would NEED it because you could face more difficult challenges and a few bad dice rolls were tough to overcome. That level 4 character had EARNED every stripe, XP, and magic item he had access to, in the meantime.

This is a completely different way than I'm willing to play. Having a higher level PC in the group just made the game less fun for others. (Or should I say "higher XP" because in 2e, some classes took more XP than others to gain levels.)

I would not support a game or edition that encouraged that, and that's completely apart from magic item issues.
 
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Regarding re-running adventures

As per the query above yes you can run through the same game again after you've managed to complete it whether going for a harder setting (3 settings; normal, hard and heroic) or just redoing it at a higher level or when you have access to higher level characters.

However all it takes is for the rogue to fail a lockpick check to deny access to another room not directly connected to the adventure scenario or a chest that isn't in the last eencounter of the adventure and you miss out on the treasure for that encounter.

Until a week ago i wasn't all that bothered, now if feels like any chest between the start and end of that adventure you're going to need to be able to pick the lock to get that treasure which makes things difficult if you're trying to recoup the losses regarding hiring npcs or buying potions of healing (all these do is heal you, no regeneration some items such as rings grant regeneration usually only whilst bloodied unless its a cleric power and there are currently 3 types of healing potions the standard healing (recover 10hp + modified extra at certain levels), Recovery (25hp) and Vitality (50hp) the last two might be named the wrong way round though!).

Its well worth picking up a ranged weapon even if you're a fighter since this allows you to attack especially when you can't get close enough for a melee attack or they're proven resistant to magic (HAS happened) and a higher level item isn't necessarily better as I found out.

You start off with well worn items and eventually get access to a new replacement no masterwork items as such and snce no feats no trying to play cleric's who can wield swords, multi-class capabilities although evidence suggest the bad guys can get that capability although as per 4e they're different from PC classes.

Be warned if you recruit higher level characters you might get as a reward an item that higher level than you but you won't be able to equip this until you've reached that level.

My wizard picked up a suit of +2 cloth and had to wait an entire level before being able to equip the armour fortunately this meant she kept her old armour since you can't sell old items until you're unequipped them.

Traps by the way do damage and no matter what level you are a rogue will take damage even if you take every countermeasure possible and have been cases where every attack roll misses even though you're 2 squares away and even have combat advantage!

So beware but enjoy yourselves!
 

I'd appreciate a little more variety in basic attacks.

I assume there's only one "thief" build - sly scoundrel. (Incidentally, the "thief" doesn't have Sly Flourish, so I'm guessing that's a rogue with the wrong name. But that's a miniscule issue.)

The cleric and wizard are the ones I have the biggest issue with. I assume the cleric is using Righteous Brand (even if it's called Righteous Might)... so where's the option for Lance of Faith? The wizard is even worse; no AoE at-will and no controlling at-will like Ray of Frost. :(

My apologies, a few quick-handed errors on my part:
You are correct the class in the game is titled rogue, not thief.
The cleric's at-will is actually referred to as Righteous Strike.
All classes get "encounter" powers starting at 1st, and one of the cleric's is Lance of Faith. One of the wizard's is Acid Arrow. If you want to play up that aspect of your build, this is how you would do it.

Perhaps, but if you can't heal between encounters, it's still promoting the 15 minute day.

When you say "reset", do you mean you full heal between rooms? Because if hit points are a daily resource, you still have the 15MD issue. After an encounter or two, PCs will want to hole up and heal (and apparently nothing stops this, although that's a video game issue and not a 5e issue). On the other hand, if PCs are essentially getting an extended rest between each room, then each encounter is a day, and each encounter power is really a daily power.

I'm not saying that in 1e or 2e you didn't get enough items, or you always got too many, I'm saying you couldn't tell because item balance wasn't in the rules. I would expect a 4e or 5e game to take that into account. Perhaps it's best to make items rare for flavor and balance reasons, or perhaps everyone should be festooned with level-appropriate items, but either way I expect the game designers to pick a standard. (I would prefer fewer items myself, but the most important thing is for item distribution to be predictable by level.)

My apologies, this is a great call-out. Your "rewards" including the ability to get keys to move along in the plot, are tied to completing an "adventure" of your choosing. Each adventure is between 4-8 rooms, each of which may have an encounter. You must succeed in all encounters to complete the adventure successfully. You get a free extended rest between adventures. In this way, your encounter powers, including healing, reset each room(encounter). You can bail at anytime during an adventure, and you get an extended rest, but you won't succeed at the adventure. It would also help to explain that the "healing" available is pretty limited compared to the hit points - (ie, heals 10 hp, 2/encounter, but the party has 80-120hp).

Item balance is DEFINITELY in the rules, and part of the reward/purchase/achievement formula. In addition, the economy appears to be radically reduced to a lot LESS items overall, especially considering both rarity, randomness, and low bonuses (you've got to work to get your 10th level character a +2 weapon).

I don't see how having a difference in THAC0 and hit points of 9 and, say, 45 hp, could be considered a small deal. That's huge, even without taking items into account.

This is a completely different way than I'm willing to play. Having a higher level PC in the group just made the game less fun for others. (Or should I say "higher XP" because in 2e, some classes took more XP than others to gain levels.)

I would not support a game or edition that encouraged that.

Because the foundation for HoN is built upon 4e concepts, the difference in HP between 1st and 4th is more like 25 and 45. It's a much tighter range. Same thing on "to hit" with all PC's commonly hitting, at pretty much any level. I would concede the tougher monsters against lower PC's and AC's seem to hit more frequently.

I completely support your opinion. This is the kind of dialogue I'd love to encourage about what could be 5e. There are aspects you're definitely keyed into included, but the concept of split levels playing together throws you, so I'd ask more about what's at the ROOT of that concern? You used the term "Monte Haul" earlier, how do you feel this taps into that? Could these concerns be addressed in design?
 

Here's an example for my friend (Psi)SeveredHead to illustrate playing with varying levels. I just played a Level 3 adventure. I used a 3rd Cleric, a 4th Wizard, a 9th rogue, and a 10th fighter. Because I was "heavy loaded" at the top, I chose the most difficult setting for the dungeon - Heroic. I just got smashed. I made it to the last room in the adventure, but lost one PC per room in each of the last four rooms, and failed to complete the adventure.
 

Oh boy!

Here's an example for my friend (Psi)SeveredHead to illustrate playing with varying levels. I just played a Level 3 adventure. I used a 3rd Cleric, a 4th Wizard, a 9th rogue, and a 10th fighter. Because I was "heavy loaded" at the top, I chose the most difficult setting for the dungeon - Heroic. I just got smashed. I made it to the last room in the adventure, but lost one PC per room in each of the last four rooms, and failed to complete the adventure.

Heroic is tough even when running an adventure thats for 2nd level at normal level.

Thats why I tend to make sure i have at least 4 potions of healing and even thats no assurance of survival. Last game I played at heroic level i barely scraped through it was enough to send my wizard to 7th level though but 4 potions of the 50pt healing variety were used up by the encounter prior to the last because the dragonborn cleric i picked was having problems healing above average.

The first goblins one in Goblin Wood I think...

Watch out for Trick or treat adventure they introduced around Halloween the last encounter in that is devastatingly tough at normal level alone!
 

Heroic is tough even when running an adventure thats for 2nd level at normal level.

This certainly adds to the elements that a D&D game would benefit from. A richer reward system for "heroic" adventure that the DM could VERY quickly adjust any existing adventure "on the fly" and make it challenging. Even to players of different levels!

My friend Earl from Amorphous Blobcast responded this way to the hypothesis:
A simpler game is what is needed in todays market. The 400+ page rulebooks are outdated and no longer appealing.

What's needed is a storytelling mechanic though. Something for roleplaying not just combat boardgaming.

Computers excel at the combat boardgame. What can not yet be competed against is a dynamic storytelling game with a conflict, not combat, mechanic.

I agree on all points.

Who do you think would have a strong storytelling mechanic that would complement this system?
 

Healing - everyone but fighters lose second wind, and the baseline for healing is now the ADVENTURE not the encounter. Clerics are the only healers. The 4e "attrition" of hp carries through, but the average damage done to the party drops significantly, so healing is a mitigation to try to get into the last encounter (usually a boss) with max hp. You can still survive if you don't, but it makes it much harder.

Healing is now the adventure? I don't understand what you mean by that.

Have you played Heroes of Neverwinter? What did you think of the game?

I have not played it. Your review leans me toward feeling negative about the style of the game though.
 

I loved feats when they arrived in 3e, but in 4e their design space overlaps a lot with both powers and class features, especially stuff like stances. I think they are ultimately redundant in the current system and basically only add to the option overload we see in 4e. Especially given that feats don't usually really do that much in 4e.
Heh.

What's interesting is that once you implement a house rule like this, you're left with feats that only do a few things.

1) Stand Alones. Your Linguistics, your Ritual Caster, these add things that are unrelated to numbers per se. Possibly also things like in the HoS and HotF books like SHadowborn and such.

2) Misc stat additions. Your skill focus/trianing, your Improved Initiative. You could also add Superior weapon training/armor training in here.

3) Power Modifiers (Most of your racial feats, for instance, modify the racial power).

4) Situational modifiers (Surprising Charge, bonus to damage with this energy type, etc)

5) Mutli-class stuff.

Personally, I'd be ok with everything but #1 going. The rest could be tucked into other things (like racial power modifiers being gained as you level).
 

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