Heroes of the Fallen Lands - Feat Preview

[Aegeri]

I would've prefered +1/+2/+3 scaling instead of 2/3/4 to keep the current feats from being totally outdated...and obviously there will need to be errata added to Epic FRW.

Epic FRW is not invalidated by this actually. They have no requirement, while this actually has the reasonably steep requirement of needing at least 13 in Cha/Will to get them by 21st level for the same benefit. Epic FRW have no requirement and are a flat +4 bonus. For certain classes, they'll be the main option over these feats.

Yeah, one of the (unintended?) features of 4e is that "until the end of X's next turn" is often better than "[save ends]." One reason is that you can usually only grant extra saving throws against conditions with a [save ends].

Also, when fighting solos and elites with saving throw bonuses, you generally prefer "end of next turn" durations, because they usually last much longer than the save, which the monster usually makes (before the end of your next turn, if you put the effect on it) or even at the start of their turn, or as an immediate reaction, as many solos have special defenses against [save ends] effects.

I agree. I've noticed a distinct change in monster design as well, where even normal creatures are often immune to things like stun/daze where Wizards rarely (if ever) did this before. Condition immunity is actually becoming more common in 4E and part of that is because "until end of next turn" effects are just too damn common IMO. PCs just load up on them and with some intelligent usage you can trivially keep almost anything stunlocked/dazelocked/dominated etc. I have really noticed the difference when you make it so that creatures like solos can save against end of next turn effects like daze, dominate and stun anyway - the game plays far better. Especially at epic tier.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Or maybe if it is tertiary and you won´t ever raise it... Epic FRW needs to be changed to a feat bonus, as the stacking of a good will (primary + class bonus) and this feat and epic will will make you rather immune to will attacks... especially if you are human...

 

[Aegeri]

Or maybe if it is tertiary and youu won´t ever raise it...

You will get +1 at 11th and +1 at 21st level to all stats remember. So a starting wis/cha of 13 will get you 15 will by epic, so you can take this feat over epic Will. The effect is well worth the stat requirement - especially at epic tier. You raise an excellent point though that epic will might need to be changed to a feat bonus with these feats in the game. At the same time, it raises PCs Fort/Reflex/Will by 2 overall by epic (As paragon defenses is +2 and already stacks with the epic feats).

To be honest if 4E at epic has a flaw it's that PCs are too easily mauled on at least 1 NAD (basically automatic) hit and the others trail far enough behind AC that they are unlikely to be missed terribly more often than 50% of the time (except for your main stat of course). Not to mention to get the benefit to all your NADs + Epic Feats you need 6 feat slots and not 4 (an extra two effectively, paragon defenses is +2 all NADs and is a feat bonus). If all have a requirement of 15 in the stat for them, that's a pretty steep ask.

That it requires Cha/Wis 15 doesn't make any sense.

"You've already got a good Will defense, so here's a feat to make it better and to get you out of daze/stun. Oh, you PCs with no need for Cha/Wis who have a low Will and would like to improve it? Suck it!"

But anyway, I'm thinking this feat is pretty much mandatory if you can afford it.

Then these players take paragon defenses and epic will instead. I mean, there have been endless arguments about essentials making stuff that came before it utterly useless all over this forum for ages now. Here we can see a powerful and clearly better feat, but it hardly invalidates the older feats that have been published but adds to them. In many cases this will entirely replace epic will at epic tier. In many other cases, epic will because it lacks any prerequisite is going to be a lot better.

It's actually a valid choice and is not "errataing" out old rules entirely as others have mentioned. Also I don't honestly believe investing in a mere 13 will to start to get this feat over epic will by 21st level is that bad. And someone starting with 15 wis/cha will but not raising it any further will keep their nads competitive from earlier in the game. Someone with a dedicated will might still want it because of the benefit it provides, even if the defense bonus in that case might even be overkill.

 

[mkill]

It's a small thing but I like that feats have fluff texts again. It just makes it a bit more evocative, rather than just adding a number.

I also like the "numerical bonus + something" concept.

What I don't like is the stat requirement, but that's because I don't like stat requirements on feats as a design element in general.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

But here, the stat requirement is - you know - required. (and hope we will see its little brother feat without requirements)

I just like the mode: numerical bonus only, when you are bad at something... but when you are good, you may keep your distance and get a little extra.

 

[Joshua Randall]

I did have a fight against a bunch of ettercaps recently, with lots of immobilizes and restraints to limit us.

You think that's bad? I had a fight against lizardfolk in which all the melee PCs were dazed and immobilized (no charging for YOU!) for two consecutive rounds. So the bad guys chased the wizard and ranger around while we melee guys sat there doing nothing useful.

Also, I walked uphill to school, both ways, in the snow.

= = =

The problem with status effects is that used sparingly, they are fun and go a long way to livening up combat. But in a typical fight, status effects are not used sparingly by either the monsters or the PCs.

So we're in this arms race mentality in which monsters have to get auto-saves and immunities and PCs are starting to get extra saves as well...

The best way out of the arms race, actually, as a DM, is not to use any status effects at all. This can completely invalidate some PC features, though! And can be boring... leading you to start using status effects again.

Ugh.

 

[Stalker0]

Well, if this is the standard essential feat I can say we have definitely entered power creep territory.

That may or may not be a bad thing. 4e started out with feats being the little brothers of powers...more for very situational tweaking than raw power. But having been used to the power of 3e feats people may have wanted feats with more power.

But one or the other, that feat is one of the stronger I've seen. Heck I would consider it even if it didn't give the bonus to will

 

[keterys]

Like the combo feats with expertise, I'm assuming that these feats are a way to make the feat tax less onerous.

Ie, at least we'll get something fun with our +X attack, +Y defenses.

 

[mach1.9pants]

[MENTION=5889]Stalker0[/MENTION] I guess we will see versions for the other NADs?

[MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION] I agree, although easier the + x only feats are dull.

These feats seem to be less basic/newbie friendly than the original, something circumstantial needs to be remembered. Like 3E dodge. IMO, although I am happy for all the extra options 4EE is going to give, the push to new players has been mixed with try to bring in 3Eers and more options for 4Eers. Essentials looks very confused in what it is offering. This is NOT a newbie friendly feat when compared to what else is out now as standard. I don't think it is going to be a bad product and I will get it (I may even try a non-rules compendium game) but I think WotC has tried to fill to many gaps with one series of products.

 

[Joshua Randall]

that feat is one of the stronger I've seen. Heck I would consider it even if it didn't give the bonus to will

Indeed!

Compare it to Martial Resolve, an Epic feat that has a more onerous requirement (Wis 15 and martial class and trained in Endurance) yet grants less than half the benefit (saves against dazed/stunned/others at start of turn, but can't save out of an "until end of turn" effect... and no bonus to Will).

Or Indomitable Will, an Epic feat that has no requirement to take, but only grants a +2 Will and a +2 to saves against dazed/stunned/dominated... so it doesn't give you more saves against d/s, just improves your chances of saving... and of course doens't let you save out of "until end of turn" effects.

I would say Superior Will blows those two feats out of the water, even with the Cha/Wis 15 requirement.