Heroes, Zeroes, and Kings

[KarinsDad]

I hate to be that guy--and I don't mean to be rude by suggesting it--but there are other game systems that cater to anime/wuxia-style fantasy superpowers play. Exalted leaps immediately to mind. Maybe the people who want that sort of thing in D&D could go play that game instead...

Agreed.

When my friends and I went to see Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon, one of my friends didn't know anything about Wuxia. So, when we left the theater, his comment on the movie was "I didn't know that they filmed this on the Moon".

That's how I feel about anime and wuxia in D&D. Those are different genres (as are superheroes) and I'd prefer that all of that stuff be in an add-on D&D modules for those people who like it. I have no problem with people who enjoy that style of high level play and WotC supplying those rules, I just don't want to be one of them and I don't want the default D&D to have that.

I don't see the point of going out of your way to create an edition of D&D that has a very strong D&D feel and then adding in elements that are very much not D&D (except possibly is some later editions in the last decade, not the first quarter century of the game system).

So, keep your peanut butter out of my chocolate, thank you.

 

[TwinBahamut]

The question I have is: Is it easier to start with the "hyper" assumption and pare it down for the "mundane" campaigns, or is it easier to start with "mundane" and add on modules for the "super"? What should the Basic/Core game presume about Fighters and Thieves at low-mid level?

I really dislike both the terms "mundane" and "super" in this context... It really does irritate me how people equate "not strictly realistic" with comic book superheroes (an association with all kinds of messy implications and assumptions that mischaracterize other's preferences). It also irritates me that anything in a fantasy game like D&D be bound by the word "mundane." Even a non magical character is a character of fantasy, and shouldn't be as boring as the word "mundane" implies.

My annoyances with your phrasing aside, I wouldn't really break things up into merely low-powered and high-powered, with some assumption that low-powered is less complex and high-powered is more complex. Rather, I'd say the baseline is somewhere between, in the realm of typical fantasy assumptions. "Gritty" play where characters start off as weaklings and anyone can die at any time would like be a more complex rules addition. "High-powered" play where characters are capable of impressive feats and can cheat death is likely a step more complicated than normal. At the same time, a concept of "high-powered gritty", where everyone is more powerful but more at risk of death at any time, is a feasible combination of the two. They would both be modules that add on to the more simple baseline.

I also disagree with an assumption you make earlier in your post, about how "epic" play and "castles and kings" play are diverging paths for the game. They are certainly both options for high-level play, but they are not incompatible. A character who can cut the sky with his sword can still be a leader and king, and that option of combining both options should be valid. Romance of the Three Kingdoms style play should an option.

Overall, I think the important point is to not think in binary terms of "one or the other" for this kind of thing, and to certainly not try to put your preference forward as the natural default and someone else's preference as the "option". Generally, such a system works a lot better if the middle ground is the default.

I hate to be that guy--and I don't mean to be rude by suggesting it--but there are other game systems that cater to anime/wuxia-style fantasy superpowers play. Exalted leaps immediately to mind. Maybe the people who want that sort of thing in D&D could go play that game instead...

If you know you're being "that guy" and that it might be rude, why are you suggesting this?

It really is rude to tell people that they are not "real" fans of D&D and that they should go off and play some other game so you don't have to put up with them and their preferences. After all, the idea that one playstyle (that D&D never fully embraced!) is "true D&D" and that the other playstyle (that is seen often in D&D!) is "not supported properly" is a very flawed perspective. D&D has always tried to play to both sides and be a game for everyone. 5E's goal of trying to quite literally provide an option for every playstyle is just a natural extension of that. I see no reason to abandon D&D for another game when it works just fine for me 90% of the time. I certainly have no desire to switch to a totally different system like Exalted with its own set of annoying preconceptions when D&D can work just fine!

D&D only fails to work for anime/wuxia fans in the minds of people who don't like anime/wuxia fans enjoying D&D.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

D&D has always tried to play to both sides and be a game for everyone.

Always? Are you sure?

'Cause when I pick up my OD&D Red box, etc, I can't see a bit of anime/wuxia influence in there. Heck, I really don't see it in 1e/2e either. To me, it appears that that sort of thing didn't begin to creep into the game until 3rd edition. I have difficulty believing that the anime/wuxia/superpowers thing is original to the game.

D&D can't be all things to everybody(not should it try--that would result in a clumsy, poorly-designed system IMO); but it can excel at being D&D if only people would stop trying to shoehorn in a lot of features from other genres that just plain don't fit.

 

[Sunseeker]

I see a lot of this anime wuxia talk, but I feel it's missing the point.

When a D&D wizard or sorcerer or any other caster class starts reaching into the upper echelons of levels, they gain super-heroic levels of power. They have since the oldest editions of D&D. How many SoD abilities does the fighter get? The thief? The only way they get these is by multi-classing into caster classes, and even then they're often saddled with high MAD and still come in second-rate to pure casters.

So, when StreamOfTheSky says he wants to see martial classes get incredible abilities on par with caster classes.

If the solution is to create more parity by neutering caster classes, well that is certainly one way to go about it. But as anyone who's played an MMO for more than a few days knows: nerfing classes is received far worse than buffing them.


What this all boils down to through is the design of the level curve, of which there is no correct answer and there's a lot of room for creativity.

Your traditional linear "curve" presents mild power increases over regular levels.
The more recent exponential curve means that you're not 20 times better at lvl 20, you're a million times better. You've gone straight from regular light speed to plaid.
Another idea if a more logarithmic curve, in which power advances slower the higher level you get. In this case a lvl 20 is maybe only 4-5 times as powerful, or less than a level 1.

The first one works well for more situations, and advancement is easily adjusted. Gaining power once a level, once every 2 levels, or every 5 levels as is the whim of the game.
The second one works well for very party-centric games where there is no need for NPC companions, two PC's per player, and by 15th level you're killing gods and elder beings.
The later kind is most compatible with "castles and kings", in which players can only get a mild level of power on their own, and to overcome greater challenges they need fortresses, allies, armies and so on.


The thing is, we shouldn't have different classes assuming different power levels. Whatever the curve of power in the game, all classes need to follow it. It's entirely unreasonable to expect the fighter to be happy with doing 1d10+10 3 times a turn when the wizard can cast "I KILL YOU" every turn.

 

[TwinBahamut]

Always? Are you sure?

'Cause when I pick up my OD&D Red box, etc, I can't see a bit of anime/wuxia influence in there. Heck, I really don't see it in 1e/2e either. To me, it appears that that sort of thing didn't begin to creep into the game until 3rd edition. I have difficulty believing that the anime/wuxia/superpowers thing is original to the game.

So are people who came into the game with 3E (like myself) who never played a previous editions of D&D, and don't care to, not "real" D&D fans? Are we having "badwrongfun" by playing a different style and having the game work for us? That's where this argument of yours is going. It's nothing more than trying to dictate to others how the game is supposed to be played, ignoring the fact that it works just fine with other styles.

D&D can't be all things to everybody(not should it try--that would result in a clumsy, poorly-designed system IMO); but it can excel at being D&D if only people would stop trying to shoehorn in a lot of features from other genres that just plain don't fit.

They fit just fine. I mean, the 3E Tome of Battle classes (which was rather explicitly inspired by things I like) worked way better than the 3E Fighter ever did. It was a better D&D class than the 3E Fighter was, and it fit my taste just fine.

Your entire argument fails on the simple truth that I enjoy D&D, and that what I enjoy doesn't detract from the central identity of D&D in the slightest.

 

[Gryph]

Always? Are you sure?

'Cause when I pick up my OD&D Red box, etc, I can't see a bit of anime/wuxia influence in there. Heck, I really don't see it in 1e/2e either. To me, it appears that that sort of thing didn't begin to creep into the game until 3rd edition. I have difficulty believing that the anime/wuxia/superpowers thing is original to the game.

D&D can't be all things to everybody(not should it try--that would result in a clumsy, poorly-designed system IMO); but it can excel at being D&D if only people would stop trying to shoehorn in a lot of features from other genres that just plain don't fit.

The Grandmaster of Flowers would like to have a word with you.

 

[ArmoredSaint]

The Grandmaster of Flowers would like to have a word with you.

Huh? There was no "grandmaster of flowers" in the original, pre-AD&D game. I don't think that came along until the 1e player's handbook.

Moreover, Gary Gygax is on record (in Dragon #67) as saying:

" Granted the Monk is not part of Medieval tradition or the usual European-based fantasy. It belongs in an Oriental-based game...I intend to move the Monk to the appendices where Bards now reside. It is hoped that sometime soon we can begin on another version of the AD&D game system which is based on Sino-Japanese culture."

That's right--he game's originator did not think that monks and asian-style wuxia cinema belonged in the core, original Euro-medieval themed D&D game.

Sure, you can argue that the game has grown/changed/evolved since then, but that won't change the fact that the anime/wuxia thing is definitely not original to the game. It was hastily tacked on and poorly thought out, and the designer wished that he could have removed it from the core rules for the sake of preserving the game's signature "European medieval-esque" flavor.

Back on topic: I wouldn't mind if they released a set of optional rules that supported high-level anime/wuxia-style play in which everybody flies around and shoots energy bolts like in Dragonball or something, but I'd rather see the bare-bones core version of the rules be geared towards emulating the classic feel of the game. I'd just rather not be obliged to include the anime/wuxia stuff in my own game just because it's in the core books, so I'd prefer that that kind of thing be optional.

 

[KidSnide]

Huh? There was no "grandmaster of flowers" in the original, pre-AD&D game. I don't think that came along until the 1e player's handbook.

Sure, you can argue that the game has grown/changed/evolved since then, but that won't change the fact that the anime/wuxia thing is definitely not original to the game. It was hastily tacked on and poorly thought out, and the designer wished that he could have removed it from the core rules for the sake of preserving the game's signature "European medieval-esque" flavor.

I don't think there are very many people who would argue that Asian-influenced game elements aren't tacked on to the original "European medieval-esque" flavor. The point is just that those Asian-influenced game elements have been tacked on for the vast majority of D&D's history and that it's not unreasonable for the fans of those elements to view that as an essential part of the D&D experience.

Monks, psionics and other non-medieval-esque elements have been in the game for a long time. I'd like the ability to play without them too, but they are part of D&D and complaining about their existence is a waste of time.

Personally, I think it's silly that warrior-clerics and paladins are totally different things, but that's also a part of D&D. The only options are to not let it bother you or to find another game. Ok, I suppose it's also an option to continue playing D&D, let it bother you, and spend time complaining on the internet. You may find empirical evidence suggesting that option (3) is very popular...

-KS

 

[Gryph]

Huh? There was no "grandmaster of flowers" in the original, pre-AD&D game. I don't think that came along until the 1e player's handbook.

Moreover, Gary Gygax is on record (in Dragon #67) as saying: That's right--he game's originator did not think that monks and asian-style wuxia cinema belonged in the core, original Euro-medieval themed D&D game.

Sure, you can argue that the game has grown/changed/evolved since then, but that won't change the fact that the anime/wuxia thing is definitely not original to the game. It was hastily tacked on and poorly thought out, and the designer wished that he could have removed it from the core rules for the sake of preserving the game's signature "European medieval-esque" flavor.

Back on topic: I wouldn't mind if they released a set of optional rules that supported high-level anime/wuxia-style play in which everybody flies around and shoots energy bolts like in Dragonball or something, but I'd rather see the bare-bones core version of the rules be geared towards emulating the classic feel of the game. I'd just rather not be obliged to include the anime/wuxia stuff in my own game just because it's in the core books, so I'd prefer that that kind of thing be optional.

Mostly a response to, "Heck, I really don't see it in 1e/2e either".

As far as whether Gary thought it belonged in the core; well, he's the one that decided to put it in the game in the first place. He may have changed his mind later, or more likely they had already started development on what would become Oriental Adventures and he was laying some groundwork for its release.

The first appearance of the Monk class was in the Blackmoor Supplement to the LBBs. So, yeah, he still wants some words.

 

[triqui]

I have said before, "superheroism" is a genre issue, not a level issue.

People should be able to build wuxia, diablo-esque, superheroes cartoons from level 1 if they want, and there should be support for high level realist games.

If I want to play Diablo on D&D, my ranger should be shooting freezing arrows and multiple volleys right from the bat, and my barbarian should be able to leap through moats and whirlwind through dozens of enemies. Yes, it should increase with level (so a ranger might shoot 3 arrows at level 1 and 30 to different targets at lvel 30, or whatever), but it's how the genre goes. Same if I want to play Naruto or whatever: characters should leap big distances (with "jump" like spells or powers).

On the other hand, in a game like Conan King, a lvl 20 fighter should not do anything really impossible, and even spellcasters should not be able to teleport, destroy mass armies or create new planes on a whim. Thoth Amon is a high level spellcaster in Conan and he can't Time Stop.