Heroes, Zeroes, and Kings

[Andor]

I've never understood the whole chocolate/peanut butter thing with Psuedo-quasi-para-european fantasy and vaugely-sorta-somewhat-orientalesque fantasy not being allowed to touch.

I mean people do recall that while Knights were clattering around in France during the 12th century there were at the same time Shao-lin monks in China, Ninja and Yamabushi in Japan, Bearsarkers looting Irish Monastaries, Witch Doctors in Africa and Hindu mystics in India right? And that ALL of them could wind up at the same inn in Byzantium. (Addmitedly the odds are low, but it was possible.)

What doesn't make any sense is insisting a culture exactly like european monotheistic fuedal society* would naturally evolve in a polytheisitic world with different geography, history, ethnology, physics and a host of competing humanoid species.

*Oh, except it wouldn't be sexist, classist, or use slaves.

 

[KarinsDad]

So are people who came into the game with 3E (like myself) who never played a previous editions of D&D, and don't care to, not "real" D&D fans? Are we having "badwrongfun" by playing a different style and having the game work for us? That's where this argument of yours is going. It's nothing more than trying to dictate to others how the game is supposed to be played, ignoring the fact that it works just fine with other styles.

You are not having badwrongfun.

But your Johnny Come Lately attitude that you should be able to dictate to others how the game is supposed to be played to those of us who have played it for over a third of a century is just as imposing as us imposing on you.

Additionally, those of us who think that it does not belong in the core game are not saying that the anime/wuxia/superhero stuff has no place in D&D, we are merely saying that it has no place in core D&D. It's totally fine for a module add-on where everyone can play as they like.

But as a core feature that would have to be ripped out, no. Anime/wuxia/superhero would suck.

It seems logical that it is easier to add this on top of a less superheroic core than it is to subtract it out.

 

[Andor]

The core game, the one without any optional modules, should be as low-powered as plausible while maintaining enough of a semblence of class balance to attract modern audiences.

That last bit is the trick however. If you still have 9th level wizards flying and shooting cone-of-colds and fireballs then the 5e 9th level fighter is going to have to bring more to the table that the AD&D 9th level fighter did.

Can this be done without breaking the barrier of mundanity? Probably. But not while adhereing to a strict sembleance to a historical Knight. Well, the the modern popular misconception of the knight anyway.

You can do it with a more specific form of the 'Title level' benefits from AD&D. If at higher levels the fighter gets an entourage/keep/barony then he can fill in the power gap between himself and the wizard without quite breaking that "I don't do magic" wall.

Instead he has a griffon mount, or a loyal alchemist who keeps him supplied with a small pool of potions, or a company of archers. Or all of the above at higher levels.

And this may jar with the popular conception of the Knight as a lone crusader, but frankly that is pure myth anyway. A knight never traveled alone, being a knight took more labour than one man could do. A single knight, on his way to tourney would have actually been A knight, A squire, a couple of servants, a warhorse, two palfreys, mules or oxen pulling the cart. The cart would have contained at the very least an arming tent for storing the Knights armour, and where he would gear up for combat and tend to his mounts. It would also be packing supplies, maintanence gear for arms and armour, food for men and beasts. This is pretty much the minimum dead broke knights company. A knight doing a bit better would also have another tent for people to sleep in, probably a few hounds and a hawk for hunting, maybe a minstrel, certainly a 'camp follower' or two. Daily maintenence of a knights arms, tack, and gear was more that any single man could accomplish.

Modules should then allow you to swap out the default benefits of high level fighterdom for alternate genres. Ditch the griffin and get wire-fu. Ditch the alchemist and get Bo9s style maneuvers. Etc.

And if you don't want followers or powers and still want to be on par with someone who can make physics cry then you need to figure out exactly how you can justify being as powerful as you want while also demanding the right to gimp yourself without limit.

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't think there are very many people who would argue that Asian-influenced game elements aren't tacked on to the original "European medieval-esque" flavor.

Precisely. Tacked on. Never a part of core.

The point is just that those Asian-influenced game elements have been tacked on for the vast majority of D&D's history and that it's not unreasonable for the fans of those elements to view that as an essential part of the D&D experience.

1E had no historical Asian weapons or armor or anything. Even the Monk (less than 2.5 pages of 1E) had nothing specific in it to indicate an Asian flavor. Some people might read the Monk as having Asian influences, but that doesn't mean that he is. The 1E Monk is no more Asian that the 1E Assassin is specifically derived from any historic real world culture.

Personally, I have no problem with Monks being part of core 5E. I have no problem with Monks not being part of core 5E. But, I would have a bit of a problem with ninjas, samurai and other classes out of Oriental Adventures being in core 5E. They don't belong in core. As an add on module? Sure.

 

[Sunseeker]

You can do it with a more specific form of the 'Title level' benefits from AD&D. If at higher levels the fighter gets an entourage/keep/barony then he can fill in the power gap between himself and the wizard without quite breaking that "I don't do magic" wall.

Instead he has a griffon mount, or a loyal alchemist who keeps him supplied with a small pool of potions, or a company of archers. Or all of the above at higher levels.

But the game is still basically saying:
The wizard is super-overpowered and we know that, but we don't care.
The fighter is severely under-powered, and we know that, but we don't care.

And frankly, I don't like that attitude.

 

[TwinBahamut]

You are not having badwrongfun.

But your Johnny Come Lately attitude that you should be able to dictate to others how the game is supposed to be played to those of us who have played it for over a third of a century is just as imposing as us imposing on you.

When did I ever have that attitude? Don't project your flawed attitude onto me just because I disagree with you. I've said that there should be modules for both, and that just because I like crazy wuxia stuff and anime doesn't mean I should be kicked out of D&D! If I'm not having badwrongfun, why are you defending an argument that I should stop playing D&D and go play Exalted?

Also, how could I not come late to the game? I'm twenty eight. I wasn't even born yet when the game was made. Just because I'm not a middle-aged grognard doesn't mean I'm not a fan of the game who is fully capable of having a valid opinion. I have exactly the same right to say what I want about my preferences as any one else who plays the game! It is nothing more than elitism to say otherwise.

Additionally, those of us who think that it does not belong in the core game are not saying that the anime/wuxia/superhero stuff has no place in D&D, we are merely saying that it has no place in core D&D. It's totally fine for a module add-on where everyone can play as they like.

But as a core feature that would have to be ripped out, no. Anime/wuxia/superhero would suck.

It seems logical that it is easier to add this on top of a less superheroic core than it is to subtract it out.

As I said before in this thread, I hate the term "superheroic" for all of this, I don't think it is so binary, and there are many approaches other than "superheroic" that would be a pain to rip out of the "core" and that the main game should resemble classic D&D, not anything more or less fantastic. A "mundane" game is as far from classic D&D as a purely wuxia-style game would be, after all.

 

[Andor]

But the game is still basically saying:
The wizard is super-overpowered and we know that, but we don't care.
The fighter is severely under-powered, and we know that, but we don't care.

And frankly, I don't like that attitude.

I don't think that's quite true though. The game is saying that someone who plays by the rules (of physics) is not, by himself and in his underwear, the equal of someone who eats physics for breakfast.

This is about like admitting that a long infantryman is not the equal of an apache gunship or main battle tank. I fail to be amazed.

To make that infantryman the equal of a gunship or tank requires giving him superhuman powers. If your genre conventions forbid that, then you must look outside the infantryman and let him go to the quartermaster to pickup a stinger or TOW missile.

In D&D terms the fighter needs magic items, or a flying mount, or a team of guys with a catapult. You can do this.

What you cannot do is make a guy with a big knife the equal of a man who commands the elements and the forces of life and death. Or at least, not without turning him into Goku. And you also cannot insist that I play Dragonball RPG when I wanted to play D&D.

Do we want wizards who can do the impossible? Yes.
Do we want mighty warriors? Yes.
Do we want some semblence of parity between them? Yes.
Can we do that without giving the warrior supernatural abilities? No.
Can we do that by making the supernatural abilities external to the warrior? Yes.

Honestly there are a lot of ways to do this. An entourage is the simpleest and (IMHO) least genre disruptive. You might also do it by allowing the old school magic item christmass tree effect but the problem then is the obvious fact that anything the knight can use the wizard can use also. (The solution to that would be to put limits on how many magic items a wizard can use. Perhaps they interfere with spell casting and each magic item he uses or carries strips away a spell slot.) You can also fix it by dipping into the martial-based supernatural abilities of wuxia.

Each of these can and should be a module. As for which one forms the 'base' module? Clearly a gladiatorial deathmatch is the only fair way to determine a winner.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Wait a minute, this is an easy fix. Make the warrior-specific magic items cheaper.

If a fighter's magic sword gives him a +10% in total effectiveness in combat, and a wizard's staff gives him a +10%, the sword could cost significantly less than the staff. Because the fighter is more dependant on magical equipment, so we set up the system so that he gets more of it for the same treasure expenditure.

 

[n00bdragon]

Why not just make "super hero spellcasters" the advanced module? Let the base set have fighters who swing swords and wizards who shoot magic missile. Then you can add your book of vancian spellcasting and vancian martial maneuvers (yes, there is no reason that can't happen). Or you can add your AEDU book. Or you can add your do power/action points. I dunno. Whatever. As long as things are even.

It should be clear after four editions that Separate-But-Equal systems for magic and "mundane" don't work. The highest priority should be on making a good game. Making a familiar game is nice, but whenever the two things clearly conflict familiar should get the boot.

 

[KarinsDad]

When did I ever have that attitude?

Maybe with the comment:

"D&D only fails to work for anime/wuxia fans in the minds of people who don't like anime/wuxia fans enjoying D&D."

We said nothing like this. This is an assertion about how we think that gives you the appearance of a Johnny Come Lately attitude concerning the grognards. We said that anime/wuxia shouldn't be core because it's very rarely seen in the game system and then, only in 3E or 4E splat books. We said nothing about it not working (as long as it isn't core rules).

Or maybe with the comment:

"Are we having "badwrongfun" by playing a different style and having the game work for us? That's where this argument of yours is going."

The argument isn't going there. It's merely going into a direction of keeping this stuff out of core. Nothing more. Nothing less. You are putting a spin on what we are saying and making assumptions about how we think about your play style.

I've said that there should be modules for both, and that just because I like crazy wuxia stuff and anime doesn't mean I should be kicked out of D&D! If I'm not having badwrongfun, why are you defending an argument that I should stop playing D&D and go play Exalted?

I didn't once make that argument, nor did I defend it.

I do think that your wuxia preferred play style should be kicked out of core D&D. But I have no problem with it being an add on module for people like yourself who enjoy it.