Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?

[UngeheuerLich]

A single round of "aid attack" and "help with flanking" by a low damage PC can grant a nova a 0.95*0.95 double hit chance wich can easily set up the next one. What can a thief add to this?

Right: Go into flank position, dish out his great damage, aid attack for the next one, as his second attack counts as rather low damage, without the slaying action feat.

 

[KarinsDad]

A single round of "aid attack" and "help with flanking" by a low damage PC can grant a nova a 0.95*0.95 double hit chance wich can easily set up the next one. What can a thief add to this?

Right: Go into flank position, dish out his great damage, aid attack for the next one, as his second attack counts as rather low damage, without the slaying action feat.

It would help if you actually were clear about your example. Is it a melee Ranger with a double attack? A different Striker type using an Action Point?

What does "0.95*0.95 double hit chance" mean?

Just because you understand what you write doesn't mean that anyone else does. Please be more clear so that you can get a clear response.

 

[MrMyth]

Nova damage makes no difference to your claim that "many strikers in 4E games, at launch, were dealing double the damage of non-strikers, and dealing damage comparable with Essentials strikers". If you include nova damage, you must also consider DPR instead of just "what happens if an attack is successful". You cannot consider one without the other, or you are skewing your data.

I was considering them two seperate elements. Rangers and rogues have DPR on par with Slayers and Thieves - in addition, they have the added benefit of nova potential, which can often be important. I'm not suggesting it trumps DPR by any means - but I do think that ignoring it entirely is somewhat silly.

And double damage by 4E Strikers might be true of implement Leaders targeting single foes, but it is not true of Controllers or any role targeting multiple foes, nor is it true of most Defenders targeting single foes.

In which case the same remains true for the Essentials characters. That's my point.

Nor is 2D12+D6 (if both hit) or 1d6+2D8+4 (if CA achieved) comparable to 1d6+2D8+6 (almost all of the time). It's less both straight up, and because the special conditions that must be met of 4E are more restrictive then those of Essentials. The Essentials Striker that is doing more damage almost every single round is doing more overall damage than the 4E Striker that is more often missing.

Look, I'm sorry, but you keep tossing out numbers without anything actually backing them up. You ignore the fact that the PHB rogue, at level 1, can have higher damage than the thief (due to Brutal Scoundrel) and higher accuracy (due to +1 to hit and weapon talent). He doesn't have CA quite as guaranteed, but can still get it the vast, vast, vast majority of the time, and the usual elements that take it away from him (such as daze) do the same to the thief.

Your claim was that Strikers dealing double damage over non-strikers was a new thing. It isn't. At level 1, the PHB Rogue is perfectly able to do that. The ranger quickly reaches the same place and surpasses him, due to multiplying damage bonuses and multi-attack powers.

 

[aurance]

If you include nova damage, you must also consider DPR instead of just "what happens if an attack is successful". You cannot consider one without the other, or you are skewing your data.

Nova damage calcs, at least those worth anything and/or done on the CharOp boards, DO include miss chances.

 

[aurance]

The Essentials Striker that is doing more damage almost every single round is doing more overall damage than the 4E Striker that is more often missing.

I'll let MrMyth carry out the debate, but I'll chime into say that I agree with him that this is just wrong.

 

[KarinsDad]

Look, I'm sorry, but you keep tossing out numbers without anything actually backing them up. You ignore the fact that the PHB rogue, at level 1, can have higher damage than the thief (due to Brutal Scoundrel) and higher accuracy (due to +1 to hit and weapon talent). He doesn't have CA quite as guaranteed, but can still get it the vast, vast, vast majority of the time, and the usual elements that take it away from him (such as daze) do the same to the thief.

Prove it.

Here are my numbers:

Level 1 Human Thief

Dex(20) +5

Rogue's Trick: Acrobat's Trick, Tactical Trick

Background: Gritty Sergeant (Rapier)

Feat: Surprising Charge
Feat: Light Blade Expertise

Case A: When the Thief (and Rogue) can easily get CA then he uses Acrobat's Trick to charge.

Attack: 5 (Dex) + 3 (Prof) + 2 (CA) + 1 (Charge) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 12 vs AC 15 = Miss(1-2) Hit(3-19) Crit(20)
Damage: 1d8 (Rapier) + 1d8 (Surprising Charge) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Weapon Finesse) + 2 (Acrobat's Trick) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 26
Crit: 8 (Rapier) + 8 (Surprising Charge) + 12 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Weapon Finesse) + 2 (Acrobat's Trick) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 38
DPR: 0.10*0 + 0.85*26 + 0.05*38 = 24

With a slightly lucky damage roll, he can kill an undamaged same level foe.


Case B: When the Thief (and Rogue) cannot get CA, then the Thief can almost always find a foe that he can use Tactical Trick against. The Rogue is out in the cold if he cannot get CA.

Attack: 5 (Dex) + 3 (Prof) + 2 (CA) + 1 (Charge) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 12 vs AC 15 = Miss(1-2) Hit(3-19) Crit(20)
Damage: 1d8 (Rapier) + 1d8 (Surprising Charge) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Weapon Finesse) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 24
Crit: 8 (Rapier) + 8 (Surprising Charge) + 12 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Weapon Finesse) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 36
DPR: 0.10*0 + 0.85*24 + 0.05*36 = 22.2


Case C: The Thief can use Tactical Trick at Range with a dagger. The Rogue has a tough time getting CA and Sneak Attack at Range.

Attack: 5 (Dex) + 3 (Prof) + 2 (CA) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 11 vs AC 15 = Miss(1-3) Hit(4-19) Crit(20)
Damage: 1d4 (Dagger) + 2d6 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Weapon Finesse) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 17.5
Crit: 4 (Dagger) + 12 (Sneak Attack) + 5 (Dex) + 2 (Weapon Finesse) + 1 (Light Blade Expertise) = 24
DPR: 0.15*0 + 0.80*17.5 + 0.05*24 = 15.2



So yes please, show me your first level Brutal Scoundrel Rogue that can beat this Thief's DPR as you claimed in all three typical encounter cases where A) the Rogue can easily get CA, B) the Rogue cannot get CA for melee, and C) the Rogue uses a Ranged attack. Don't forget, Weapon Talent for a Rogue requires the use of a Dagger.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

It would help if you actually were clear about your example. Is it a melee Ranger with a double attack? A different Striker type using an Action Point?

What does "0.95*0.95 double hit chance" mean?

Just because you understand what you write doesn't mean that anyone else does. Please be more clear so that you can get a clear response.

95% chance to hit on each of two attacks. Makes a chance of 0.95 times 0.95 chance of hitting with both attacks.

Take a nova round of a slayer for example. (I know bad example as it is also from HotFL)

You can easily achieve a hit bonus of +9 at first level. Damage is about 1d10+8. Against a first level brute you deal 3d10+16 damage with your nova. Your chance to hit with a little help from a friend it is about 95% hit chance against AC 15 IF you go for poised assault.

Compare this to a thief´s 4d6+14 (18-38) damage on a nova. Even a striker with about no nova potential comes ahead of a thief.

Take a Ranger. Even if I take careful shot which is not that bad at level one, and just attack twice, i will have 2d10+1d6+10 damage with 95% to hit chance on first level and i did not even use a single encounter power.

If I take Jaws of the wolf and off hand strike, i trade in a little bit accuracy and the damage is about 6d8+1d6+12 (19-66) or so. With the OPTION of trading in one attack on a nova round for an area power. (Dire wolverine strike)

Hell, i now try and search for a warlock build that does more damage than the thief on a nova round vs a single target... i bet i find one

 

[UngeheuerLich]

flame of Phlegtos + vampiric embrace.

This is 3d10+1d8+1d6+8 +5 damage with pretty much certanity: 18-57 damage. not that bad.

Oh and you gain 7 or so temp hp and are con primary, so if you don´t kill, you are still at range and ready to take a beating.


The thief in your example uses a human with an extra feat and a dodgy background.

 

[kaomera]

Well-played warlocks are cool.

I agree, but I think the issue is that the Warlock is much closer to a hybrid-role class than any other in PHB1. This was probably helped along by some confusion about exactly what the controller role was supposed to accomplish, and the fact (well, IMO) that it's the most conditional role of the four. I've actually seen all of 3 pure controllers played in 4e, and all where pretty bad. OTOH I've seen secondary controllers (especially in multiples) totally shut down entire groups of encounters...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I have seen a hunter in action which is a pure controller... and the status effect she dished out usually was "death"...

sliding and dropping prone and nearly never missing helped a lot... oh, and the rest of the group were:

a fighter, a warpriest, a gnome illusionist, a druid and a psion... 4 controller, no striker... poor enemies...