Herores of the Fallen Lands - Are Slayers underpowered?

[Nemesis Destiny]

Last game I ran (before this discussion), I had a pretty easy time pulverizing the Thief, and that Thief had a heck of a time getting CA.

He was repeatedly being knocked prone by Carrion Crawlers attacking his feeble Fort defence. He had to use his move actions to stand, rather than a nifty Thief trick, and as the CCs had dragged him off, his allies were nowhere in sight to help him gain CA. At least, not at first.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

Last game I ran (before this discussion), I had a pretty easy time pulverizing the Thief, and that Thief had a heck of a time getting CA.

He was repeatedly being knocked prone by Carrion Crawlers attacking his feeble Fort defence. He had to use his move actions to stand, rather than a nifty Thief trick, and as the CCs had dragged him off, his allies were nowhere in sight to help him gain CA. At least, not at first.

Any Thief who does not take the level 2 Acrobatics utility power Agile Recovery is missing an incredible option. The Thief has no real use* for minor actions in the normal course of combat, but desperately needs to conserve move actions to make things work.

* Yes, you may occasionally want to change weapons, drink a potion, etc., but if you are that concerned about those options, take Quick Draw too.

 

[S'mon]

Last game I ran (before this discussion), I had a pretty easy time pulverizing the Thief, and that Thief had a heck of a time getting CA.

He was repeatedly being knocked prone by Carrion Crawlers attacking his feeble Fort defence. He had to use his move actions to stand, rather than a nifty Thief trick, and as the CCs had dragged him off, his allies were nowhere in sight to help him gain CA. At least, not at first.

Yeah, if my fellow PCs were not keeping the monsters off me, this kind of thing would happen to me too. But my group includes a Fighter and a melee Ranger Minotaur to hide behind, and in extremis I can even hide behind the Leader (Cleric or Warlord) for a round.

 

[S'mon]

Any Thief who does not take the level 2 Acrobatics utility power Agile Recovery is missing an incredible option.

What book is that in? Only PHB 1+2 & HOTF/HOTK are legit for my campaign, but I can always beg.

 

[abyssaldeath]

What book is that in? Only PHB 1+2 & HOTF/HOTK are legit for my campaign, but I can always beg.

Players Handbook 3. It's a skill power.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

With Ambush Trick + Tactical Trick, it's rare not to have CA - the target has to be adjacent to an ally of his while not adjacent to an ally of yours. The one time that happened I did a Stealth check then popped out of hiding to CA him anyway.

There is one weak point for this set of options -- if you start your turn adjacent to a hard-hitting melee opponent against which you do not already have CA. Your choices are:

1) attack without CA, shifting either before or after
2) attack without CA, then move away, risking OA
3) move away using Ambush Trick, risking OA, and then attack with CA
4) shift and then move away, making no attack at all
5) double move to get far away

Some DMs will allow you to use the CA-granting tricks (Ambush and Tactical) without actually moving a square -- consider it to be bobbing and weaving without really moving much -- but it's hard to imagine a DM that would allow you to do it without provoking an OA.

For that reason I strongly suggest that even Thieves who use Ambush Trick consider taking the feat Cunning Stalker, which gives the benefit of Ambush Trick when adjacent, without needing to use a move action. (And if your DM allows Cunning Stalker to apply at range, you don't need Ambush Trick at all.)

Finally, I have to put in a good word again for Opportunistic Withdrawal at paragon tier. It is amazing when combined with almost constant CA -- far better than anything Artful Dodgers gets.

 

[Prestidigitalis]

What book is that in? Only PHB 1+2 & HOTF/HOTK are legit for my campaign, but I can always beg.

As abyssaldeath says, PHB3. Skill powers are amazingly cool, IMO -- you should definitely ask your DM to make them legal, even if he or she dislikes the psionic power source and/or has other problems with the book.

 

[kaomera]

Some DMs will allow you to use the CA-granting tricks (Ambush and Tactical) without actually moving a square -- consider it to be bobbing and weaving without really moving much -- but it's hard to imagine a DM that would allow you to do it without provoking an OA.

Huh? The movement portion of powers is optional (unless otherwise specified), and you only provoke an OA by leaving a square. By RAW* the DM has no room to disallow a trick because you didn't leave your starting square, or to cause the trick to provoke an OA (unless something in the specific rules for the trick says otherwise).

*Assuming I'm reading / remembering RAW correctly, but I think I am...

 

[kaomera]

What book is that in? Only PHB 1+2 & HOTF/HOTK are legit for my campaign, but I can always beg.

There's also Hop Up, but it's from Martial Power.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I would also consider using the ambush trick without moving and without provoking an OA legit.