D&D 5E (2014) Hex and Bestow Curse

[FormerlyHemlock]

Bestow curse seems super-weak to me. I'm not sure why anyone would cast it, really. Maybe to debuff a saving throw on the round before you cast a big nasty spell? Sure, if it works, and you just spent a round and a spell slot -- you were probably better just casting some other offensive spell for damage.

Like I look at the "disadvantage on attack rolls against the caster" and think, "Why not just cast blur and get that against all foes, at 1 level lower?"

Or I look at the "wisdom save every round to take an action" and think, "Why not just hold person and move in for the kill?" (Actually the "wisdom save every round to take an action" is one of the better effects of bestow curse.)

As mentioned previously on this thread, Bestow Curse has two crucial selling points:

1.) Bestow Curse V does not take concentration, so you can cast it even when Hold Person isn't available. (Also, unlike Hold Person, it doesn't end on the first successful save.)
2.) You can use it to set up for other spells, especially spells that you don't plan to use to kill the target.

Uses for #2 include Magic Jar on that werebear you'd like to possess, Planar Binding on that Goristro/Nycaloth you're interested in (since each casting costs 1000g and a high-level spell slot, you want to minimize the number of successful saves), and Dominate Monster (since it gets a new Wisdom save each time it takes damage, you may want to blow a 5th level spell slot on giving your new pet disadvantage on such saves). In all cases you are trading in spell slots for something else like gold or time, so you'd want to do it only when spell slots aren't the bottleneck on your plans.

There's also a third selling point in that Bestow Curse IX is permanent until dispelled, but that's kind of niche. Still, perma-stunning someone (with disadvantage on the Wisdom save too!) is kind of a cool revenge idea, and so is e.g. giving someone permanent diarrhea.

 

[Lancelot]

I agree that bestow curse is pretty weak for a 3rd level slot for some of its abilities, but there are two I wouldn't want to see buffed any further. As DM, I've been on the receiving end of it more than a few times. Having a creature hexed is no big deal. The warlock gets his version of "sneak attack damage" - so what. But a bestowed curse can shut down a boss creature.

Firstly, the Wis-save-or-no-action is not equivalent to hold person. In a typical D&D adventure, there's a pretty narrow range of creatures that hold person can affect. There's a reason why hold monster is a 5th level spell. Bestow curse needs to be weaker than hold monster, hence the touch range, etc.

Secondly, the disadvantage-to-one-save is a combo-maker's dream. If you've got a couple of other PCs in the party that rely heavily on a particular save to get their cool effect off (e.g. the assassin's poison, or the sorcerer's blast effects), bestow curse is the great equalizer. Even better if someone else has Wisdom-save attacks. The target has disadvantage on saves to overcome both the curse and the other nastiness that's about to land on it.

From my experience, hex is basically the same as taking a level of rogue or ranger. Congratulations: you've got your sneak attack or hunter's mark. Yes, I know it's better than sneak attack, but the point is that it's fundamentally just a damage buff (in most cases). But bestow curse can be very close to a save-or-die, and it's not limited to "persons".

I wouldn't waste time with the bestow curse damage bonus or disadvantage on attacks, however. As other posters have pointed out, those are pretty weak-sauce.

How about a new discussion topic: 3rd level bestow curse versus 5th level hold monster. Why is bestow curse so powerful?

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

How about a new discussion topic: 3rd level bestow curse versus 5th level hold monster. Why is bestow curse so powerful?

Haven't we already covered that? Non-concentration 8 Hour duration for the same slot cost, doesn't end on the first successful save. So unlike Hold Person you don't have to rush to kill it while the spell lasts--you can prioritize other targets and come back to this one at your leisure. Maybe even take it captive and Magic Jar it or something.

 

[Ashrym]

Some of the curses seem to apply to a more civilized setting of not killing someone, while some are nice. The spell is okay in a regular slot but no concentration in a 5th level slot makes it amazing, which is why I suspect it's not on the warlock list except with the invocation.

Necromancy school is also a selling feature because it can target creatures that might not be susceptible to to other spells due to immunities.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Necromancy school is also a selling feature because it can target creatures that might not be susceptible to to other spells due to immunities.

I don't think there is any interaction between spell schools and immunities in 5E. I haven't seen any creatures anyway who are "immune to enchantment/charm spells" or "immune to illusions."

 

[Ashrym]

I don't think there is any interaction between spell schools and immunities in 5E. I haven't seen any creatures anyway who are "immune to enchantment/charm spells" or "immune to illusions."

Check the spell descriptions. Hold monster, for example, has no effect on undead. Bestow curse doesn't have that restriction. There are several spells that state they don't function or the target automatically saves if the target is immune to charm.

That kind of thing.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Check the spell descriptions. Hold monster, for example, has no effect on undead. Bestow curse doesn't have that restriction. There are several spells that state they don't function or the target automatically saves if the target is immune to charm.

That kind of thing.

Oh, that kind of thing. I thought you meant something that was a property of the monster (naming a spell school) instead of the individual spell (naming a monster type). Good point about Hold Monster though.

 

[Ashrym]

Oh, that kind of thing. I thought you meant something that was a property of the monster (naming a spell school) instead of the individual spell (naming a monster type). Good point about Hold Monster though.

Those traits don't specify a spell school but seem like a property based on similar effects within a school. It isn't full spell schools that I can recall any instance but enchantment spells more often have such restrictions.

 

[PnPgamer]

Hex is way better than bestow curse. Doing almost the same, casting time as bonus and to top all off it is a first level spell.

 

[Mephista]

Bestow curse seems super-weak to me. I'm not sure why anyone would cast it, really. Maybe to debuff a saving throw on the round before you cast a big nasty spell? Sure, if it works, and you just spent a round and a spell slot -- you were probably better just casting some other offensive spell for damage.

That's the problem with debuffs in the first place. D&D tends to be pretty crappy with them at all.

Take a look at Bless and Bane. The two spells are almost mirror reflections of each other- one makes enemies hit less, one makes you hit more often. You would think they're roughly equal. I mean, Bless is considered one of the best spells in the game! However, Bane is generally considered a far less useful spell. Why?

Several reasons - 1) Spells that eliminate an enemy are more effective, 2) enemies die fairly quick (~3 round combats) while PCs stay around (making PCs better targets of buffs than debuffs) and 3) enemy gets a save. I mean, really, why is Bane contested? You have to beat their saves in order to make their attacks maybe slightly worse with a 1d4 roll, and that attack might still hit with a good d20?

Its the same thing with other so-called curses. Mind Fog. Seems pretty cool, -10 to saves... but you have to beat a WIS Save in the first place before it works. May as well used just a regular Hold Person spell; same save, and the target is effectively dead meat. 99% of the time, its pointless to cast a set-up curse. Setting up combos sounds like fun, but the set up to cast these spells generally doesn't make it worthwhile. Curses are just terrible spells in this game.

Bestow Curse isn't too terrible of a spell for non-warlocks, because the WIS-save-or-no-action bit can be good in some situations, using a lower level spell slot for a solid control effect against someone traditionally weak to WIS saves. That said, I'd say its inferior to Hold Person, Banish, or any other number of Save or Suck effects, so those would be a better option to reach for. I'd only go for Bestow Curse if those other options weren't viable. Its a niche effect.