sinmissing said:
I do indeed view these 6 classes as Archetypes, because I don't quite understand yet how a prepackaged group of choices; however flexible; does not equate to what an Archetype is. In fact, I'm sure that you're confining the term archetype to purposely exclude the 6 core classes.
Mmm, not really. Archetype is a broad term, and you can certainly USE the word for what the classes are, but then you're taking what I see as an entirely different definition of the word and applying it to other things. For instance, the horror-movie-archetype-guy.
If "The Shape" is an archetypal horror concept then D&D and d20Modern/GrimTales have two ways of handling it. D&D would say: "This is a class, called The Shape, and it'll have these things." Or "This is a Monster called The Shape, and it'll have these things." and they'd be laid out.
But, as you said, the Archetype of The Shape may be made up of Strong/Tough levels. It's not one or the other. I used the term "Jungian" to sort of call forth Archetype as you've done with The Shape ... The Paladin, The Rogue, The Hard-Eyed Loner, etc.
Each of these is an archetype ... but you BUILD it from the more fundamental blocks of the core classes.
Hrm. Let me think of another way to say it, using another system I'm familiar with.
In Mutants and Masterminds, another d20-based game, you purchase everything from Skill Points to Ability Scores to Feats and Powers with "Power Points". From the ground up you determine exactly what numbers will be in what places by spending these points in various ways. The power-points, themselves, are the building blocks of character creation. The character concept, then, can be pretty much anything ... within the ability of Power Points and the system to model it.
Now, a problem inherent in this sort of system is that you don't HAVE to spend any points in any particular area at any particular time. M&M takes alot of hand-balancing on the part of the DM because one guy can say: "I'm going to be a melee GOD" and put his points all in STR and Super-STR and "save points" by spending NOTHING on skill points, then spend power-points on a whole feat-chain all at the same time during character creation, while neglecting every other aspect of the character. Now this character is better at combat than other characters ... so much so that he totally dominates combat in every way and more "balanced" or "middle of the road" character's can't compete with his pure bruising power. Now, maybe he can't Skills himself out of a wet paper bag, and maybe it's unrealistic to build somebody with 10 ranks of Super-STR and STR 20 and not a single skill point ... but that's how it goes. You, as the DM, then must know exactly what THAT PC is capable of and make sure not to throw critical skill checks his way (as he'll always fail them) and know that in any particular combat dance a mean jig to make sure the other PCs feel like they're doing more than rooting for El Hombre Maximo-Stupido from the sidelines.
The way Modern handles this is it says: "What's your concept?" Then you build a PC toward that concept using different levels of the 6 classes to increase specific areas. Base Skill Points, BAB, Class Defense, Class Skills and the like are provided within each of these classes in differing amounts not so much because they represent a certain "type" of individual, but because they bring balance to the system. You can't dump everything into BAB. Strong has the best BAB advancement, but you still get a handful of Skill Points, some class skills, a bonus feat list, and specific talents. You don't get +1/1 BAB and Skill Emphasis and Savant.
I see them more as a mechanism of internal balance, I suppose, than Archetypes. When I see a character: Strong1/Tough1/Fast3 I'll have some idea of what that character is capable of. Strong1 tells me he has a little bump to his BAB that probably levels out multiclassing and gives him a talent like Melee Smash or something that affects HITTING or LIFTING things. Tough1 means he'll have a hit point boost, and probably a talent involving staying up on his feet. Fast3 is going to give him better Defense than Strong or Tough, and more average skill points as well. I have a rougher estimate of where those SPs are, but I won't really know until I see his Starting Occupation. That's what it says just from the classes. Now, if I look at Stats and see he has 10 Con, I'll know he'll only have average HP for each of those classes. If he has 18 Int I'll know that he has 20 more skill ranks. His 13 Dex tells me his Ranged attack bonus isn't going to be much higher than his Melee and that he probably took Fast mostly for the Defense, meaning he wanted to be harder to hit instead of faster to pull the trigger.
There's no over-weaning "Archetype" I'd associate with that PC beyond what I can guess from the building blocks of the character.
When I get a M&M character I see it's PL 10 ... I know he's spent 150 PPs and that nothing will be higher than +10 from super powers.
That's ... pretty much it. Now, if he's called "The Steel Destroyer" I'll figure he's probably a melee combatant. If his "Archetype" box says "Powerhouse" I'll be sure of it. What does that mean, though? Until I see his character sheet I can GUESS that he spent alot of points on Super STR ... maybe some on Super CON but that could be Protection or just Amazing Save DMG. Maybe he spent 10pp on skills, maybe 5pp on skills, maybe 0pp on skills. How is that going to affect his BAB? High, low? Defense? No idea. Can't really begin to guess. One PL10 "Powerhouse" may be able to rip another one in half like a phone book because of how they spent their points. Each of them has an "Archetype" associated with it ... but I have no earthly clue what that'll mean game-numbers-wise.
Mechanics wise, I see the overall application of Skill Point acquisition, the INT boni, the way SP get spent, cross-class costs, rank caps, and multi-class penalties to be a convoluted attempt to enforce the archetypes that D&D wishes to describe. This is completely reasonable; for D&D; but in Grim Tales you shouldn't need to do all this.
I know/see what you're saying. Just don't agree with you. I think the changes you're wanting to make (No bonus SP, no bonus HP) will seriously and permanently affect the balance of the gameplay in ways that haven't become clear outside of playtesting. I'll say that the best bet at this point is to call it an entirely different OGL game and begin tweaking and playtesting it with friends until you've found the internal consistency you want. As-is I think you'll find Int rapidly becomes a dump stat right along-side Charisma (unless you're doing GT horror, then Int will be dump). Without a Saving Throw associated with it (like Wisdom) or a permanent and used-a-million-times-a-game bonus like STR/DEX it'll become much less attractive to anybody but 1-2 specific character concepts based around Int-skills (because if you want Skill Points you don't need Int, you just need Smart levels, unless you can only spend SPs from Smart levels on Int skills ... where-upon you'll find that all you're getting with a Smart hero is a guy with a bonus twice as high in Knowledge as the Strong guy's ranks in Climb because he has no-place else to spend it). If you don't mind games full of low-Int fighters conforming to specific archetypes defined by you within the system, then it works great. If you CAN spend those Smart SPs anywhere you want, then you'll see the occassional Smart level but all around Intelligence scores of 10.
--fje
Course I enjoy a good argument, so it may just be me.
