Hey Publishers, fair use?

[xmanii]

Treebore, you still aren't getting it. What you are talking about with regards to sharing a book doesn't fall under the Fair Use laws at all.

Fair Use is: for the purposes of criticism, comment, new reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, fair use allows someone who does not own the copyright of a work to use portions of it without either paying the copyright holder or asking for permission.

Fair use is also time shifting, according to Wikipedia.

 

[Treebore]

Treebore, you still aren't getting it. What you are talking about with regards to sharing a book doesn't fall under the Fair Use laws at all.

Fair Use is: for the purposes of criticism, comment, new reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, fair use allows someone who does not own the copyright of a work to use portions of it without either paying the copyright holder or asking for permission.

No, I understand "fair use" just fine. Those thinking the list you just gave is "finite", or definitive, are the ones who are misunderstanding. It is definitive
with regards to those specific issues, but "fair use" still applies to far more, which has yet to receive legal definitions because other issues of fair use have not been worked out in court yet. However, you can rest assured the guidelines in the "fair use" section will be used to render such future decisions.

I also know that the specifics of buying and reselling of books, music, etc... is covered in detail elsewhere in Article 17.


Anyways, I have found a satisfactorily "safe" method with which to share PDF's. Whether "fair use" covers it or not. PDF publishers may want to consider giving guidelines of what they consider to be proper ways to share their PDF's, etc... Whether or not they want to call such guidelines "fair use".

 

[Bardsandsages]

No, I understand "fair use" just fine. Those thinking the list you just gave is "finite", or definitive, are the ones who are misunderstanding. It is definitive".

But that is the point, fair use IS finite. Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright law specifically does limit what constitutes fair use.

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright.

It doesn't say "and possible other applications." It provides a finite list.

Furthermore:

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

Fair use is a very narrow window. It is not nearly as broad as you seem to believe it is.

Now you asked publishers specifically what they think is fair use. If you were giving away 6 copies of my campaign settings online to your friends, I would consider that copyright infringement in a heartbeat. In short, you nullify the need for them to buy the book (see points 3 and 4 above) by providing it to them for free. Whether or not you tell them to delete it later, or you delete it means nothing. The copies are still out there and the damage has been done.

As someone else noted, the different between loaning a physical book and "loaning" a PDF is that you aren't in fact loaning a PDF, but providing an exact copy to another person. There is no way to "loan" a PDF. All you do is create a digital copy, while your digital copy is still available to you. Loaning a PDF is the same as making a physical copy of the book and giving it to another person.

 

[Goblinoid Games]

The only thing I intentionally suggested was that PDF's be shared in as similar a fashion as you would a book.

Then I assume what you mean by this is that you open the PDF on your computer and let other people read it on your computer. That would be equivalent to sharing a book. Inconvenient, yes, but so is lending your book to someone. Making copies of your PDF and giving them away is not the same thing as lending a physical book.

Whether the copied books are deleted after your group is done is irrelevant. It would be the same as copying a physical book, handing it out to your players so they don't have to buy it when you run a game, and then having them trash the copies later since they don't need them anymore. What you've done is save your group money and rip off the publisher. Treebore, I've seen you post around on various forums enough to know you are a nice, smart guy. I'm frankly startled that you would argue this practice is "fair use."

 

[Treebore]

Then I assume what you mean by this is that you open the PDF on your computer and let other people read it on your computer. That would be equivalent to sharing a book. Inconvenient, yes, but so is lending your book to someone. Making copies of your PDF and giving them away is not the same thing as lending a physical book.

Whether the copied books are deleted after your group is done is irrelevant. It would be the same as copying a physical book, handing it out to your players so they don't have to buy it when you run a game, and then having them trash the copies later since they don't need them anymore. What you've done is save your group money and rip off the publisher. Treebore, I've seen you post around on various forums enough to know you are a nice, smart guy. I'm frankly startled that you would argue this practice is "fair use."

I don't think you read my later posts in this thread. To legally share a PDF I can send it to anyone I wish. ONE person. While I have the PDF out on loan to this one person I must delete my copies of it until they send it back. When they send it back they must delete their copy of it, and go buy their own if they wish to have one. That way there is only one copy of the book, that I bought, at any given time.

So just like sharing my one copy of a book, which I often do, I mimic the same circumstances of sharing the PDF with my sharing of a book as closely as I can.

I agree sharing 6 separate copies with six separate people on six separate computers definitely violates copyright and "fair use". Which is why I started this thread asking what publishers would consider "fair use" of their PDF's.

I now have what I think is an acceptable and legal way to share my PDF's, and if you disagree with it I would like to know why.

 

[Treebore]

But that is the point, fair use IS finite. Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright law specifically does limit what constitutes fair use.



It doesn't say "and possible other applications." It provides a finite list.

Furthermore:


Fair use is a very narrow window. It is not nearly as broad as you seem to believe it is.

Now you asked publishers specifically what they think is fair use. If you were giving away 6 copies of my campaign settings online to your friends, I would consider that copyright infringement in a heartbeat. In short, you nullify the need for them to buy the book (see points 3 and 4 above) by providing it to them for free. Whether or not you tell them to delete it later, or you delete it means nothing. The copies are still out there and the damage has been done.

As someone else noted, the different between loaning a physical book and "loaning" a PDF is that you aren't in fact loaning a PDF, but providing an exact copy to another person. There is no way to "loan" a PDF. All you do is create a digital copy, while your digital copy is still available to you. Loaning a PDF is the same as making a physical copy of the book and giving it to another person.

I think if you will read what I posted to Goblinoid you will see I agree with you on what constitutes fair use, at least if you agree with what I have decided is a legal way to share PDF's. IE if I share it with someone I don't have my own copy until it is e-mailed back to me. They are to delete it as well, then buy their own if they liked it enough. Exactly like how actual books are shared.

I think you PDF publishers should get together and give your customers some clear guidelines on what you consider "fair use", or legal sharing. A lot of people do violate such laws simply because they don't know. Granted, this won't stop pirating, because those people just don't care about the law. It does help those who want to be legal stay legal. Like me.

So rather than make such customers have to come to a forum and start a thread like this, put "fair use" guidelines on your websites and in your PDF's.

PDF publishers should try and so so collaboratively. It will let your customers know how to stay within the law, and it helps publishers by establishing a widely accepted practice that will help publishers in future law suits over copyright and fair use violations.

 

[Treebore]

But that is the point, fair use IS finite. Section 107 of the U.S. Copyright law specifically does limit what constitutes fair use.


It doesn't say "and possible other applications." It provides a finite list.

Furthermore:


Fair use is a very narrow window. It is not nearly as broad as you seem to believe it is.

You know, maybe you, Mark, and I actually agree. Even you say it is finite, but then show how those 4 guide lines help you define fair use on a situation not defined specifically in "fair use". That is what I am saying. The list does not cover every possible situation of fair use, but those 4 guidelines help to do so.

 

[Bardsandsages]

Treebore,

The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference. In practice, there is.

In theory IF you delete your copy after forwarding it to a friend and IF your friend deletes his copy after returning it to you, it would be the cyber equivelent of "loaning" your book.

However, unlike a physical book that is verifiably out of your possession when you loan it, there is no way to confirm that you are no longer in possession of your copy. Furthermore, there is no way to confirm that your friend deleted his copy before returning it to you. Also, if you bought the PDF from a service like RPGNOW, you technically STILL have the PDF, because it is stored under your account (you can redownload it multiple times from RPGNOW).

In theory, it is plausible. In practice, it is impossible. The technology does not support the ability to do what you theoretically claim you want to do.

 

[Treebore]

Treebore,

The difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference. In practice, there is.

In theory IF you delete your copy after forwarding it to a friend and IF your friend deletes his copy after returning it to you, it would be the cyber equivelent of "loaning" your book.

However, unlike a physical book that is verifiably out of your possession when you loan it, there is no way to confirm that you are no longer in possession of your copy. Furthermore, there is no way to confirm that your friend deleted his copy before returning it to you. Also, if you bought the PDF from a service like RPGNOW, you technically STILL have the PDF, because it is stored under your account (you can redownload it multiple times from RPGNOW).

In theory, it is plausible. In practice, it is impossible. The technology does not support the ability to do what you theoretically claim you want to do.

Yes it does. All e-mails are time stamped, which is why I keep mentioning using e-mails to share PDF's. Then saving them. It proves when I sent the PDF, then embedded records in my HD can be recovered via computer forensics to verify that PDF file was deleted during that time frame, and then saved once again to my computer once I have the e-mail saved showing they returned it to me.

Hopefully whoever I loaned the book/PDF to does the same thing. If not he is in trouble, I am not because I can prove I loaned the PDF in good faith. He gets sued, I get a boy scout badge.

 

[Darrin Drader]

Especially in 3E with the OGL making so much material "open" anyways.

So why are you even worried about fair use if the material is OGC? The solution is simple: Use the copy text feature of Adobe Acrobat to copy the text that you want the other players to have. Make absolutely sure that the text you copied has been designated as open. Slap a copy of the OGL with a properly updated section 15 at the end of the document. Distribute freely among your friends.

Sure, it's a little scummy, but there's nothing illegal about it.