Hide armor expertise

[Destil]

Please excuse the slight tangent, but how would people feel about attempts to improve defenses for Shamans, etc., by means other than armor proficiencies, ability-shifting (Con instead of Dex), or flat bonuses?

Examples:

Shaman gets +1 bonus to all defenses when within 5 squares of spirit companion.

Barbarian gets +1 bonus to AC and Reflex when raging.

These are just examples, not well thought out. I'm just wondering if that sort of thing would be more acceptable to those who find Hide Armor Expertise to be excessive.

I did this here (though in feat-tax form):
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/267454-house-rule-feats-plug-ac-holes.html

Re: Hide Armor Expertiese. A Str/Con build can go cry in a corner about AC sucking in light armor. They're a feat away from chain as is. The Starlock, on the other hand, is screwed.

 

[Mengu]

The Starlock, on the other hand, is screwed.

That's not due to any deficiency in armor design. It's just poor power design. If they only needed Con or Cha, they would be perfectly happy sinking a 16 or 18 into Int for reasonably good defenses, especially considering they often have concealment.

 

[eamon]

Well, said language doesn't really work, as it would also slow the character down (as that's one of the effects of heavy armour).

Better to just say it replaces the AC bonus from the Barbarian Agility class feature.

No, that's actually a specific effect on chainmail, scale and plate armor. If you consider hide armor to be heavy the only rules effect I can discern is that "When you wear heavy armor, you don't add an ability score modifier to your AC." Since the feat explicitly doesn't add Dex/Int but does add Con, this should be fairly clear (if not as currently written, then simply as "Hide armor is considered heavy armor when you wear it. Do not add your Dex or Int modifier to AC. Add your Con modifier to AC.").

In any case, Hide armor expertise as is (or with the suggested update) does have its uses for shamans, invokers and warlocks, even if those uses cost feats and aren't a major power boost. Barbarian Agility, on the other hand, needs to be fixed, both for its interaction with Hide armor Expertise and for its interaction with the whirling barbarian build.

 

[blargney the second]

Though to be honest, I have yet to see a fighter who maxes out both str and con, or at least, pay as much attention to it as a barbarian.

I just ran the numbers using this feat on my minotaur hammer fighter multi-barb, and it works out to be equal to or worse than just using scale armour. I'd be much better off spending that feat to pick up scale specialization at paragon.
-blarg

 

[Walking Dad]

doesn´t stack with barbarian agility and problem solved. Another idea would be: hide armor ins considered heavy armor while using this feat. Or special: you do not get the barbarian agility bonus to armor while using con instead of dex or int

Why it is a problem, then there is a new good option?

Shamans don't get hide proficiency so they'd need to spend 2 feats to get it... hide prof, then hide expertise. Given the stat requirements for hide are the same as chain, they're better off just getting chain instead.
Likewise warlocks need to a. get hide proficiency, b. multiclass to primal, c. get hide expertise. They're better off in leather (if you really insist on going con/cha then I guess think about chain, or live with a low AC).
Invokers start with chain anyway, so they don't even really need it.

The builds that hide expertise helps the most are ironically the ones that already get something to offset their lower AC; rageblood barbarians and battlerager fighters.

Also in reponse to the above, rageblood barbarians have higher con than defenders typically have (excluding con build wardens) so they end up with slightly more hp because of that. Admittedly its not much, but when combined with the high number of healing surges it means the barbarian can keep going for a long time even if he does take more damage.

Why does defenders typically have a lower con?

And I would always buy str 12 for chain prof than taking hide and hide expertise for a warlock.

For shaman's there is also another hidden cost. The armor's with shaman specific bonuses are leather only.

The downside is that he does so in tandem with str, and both benefit the same defense.
...

Very good point. The designers even stated that races with a bonus to tandem abilities (eladrin, warforged,..) needed a bonus because it is suboptimal.

So, I have a barbarian build with crappy Reflex and Will and it is overpowered if AC isn't lacking, too?

Fighters do have a way to up their Reflex and Will, They just have to be using a shield.

Yes, the agility feature is more instead of a shield.

I just ran the numbers using this feat on my minotaur hammer fighter multi-barb, and it works out to be equal to or worse than just using scale armour. I'd be much better off spending that feat to pick up scale specialization at paragon.
-blarg

What I said. It only pays of, if you have a feature dependent of wearing light armor and you will spend each ability point you can on con.

This is up to date:
Thunderborn & Rageblood Barbarian,
Swarm Druid.

In all other cases, staying with the standard or buying chain is preferable.