Hide from Dragons

[Cheiromancer]

Hide from Dragons is found in the Draconomicon.

Do people feel that Hide from Dragons is balanced?

There are two Hide from ... spells in the PHB- one for animals, one for undead. Warded creatures can't touch the creature they are hiding from or attack anything; otherwise the spell ends for everyone. Hide from Animals differs from Hide from Undead in that animals don't get a save to be able to detect warded creatures, but Hide from Undead grants intelligent undead a will save to penetrate the ward.

Dragons, on the other hand, don't get a save. I don't think they get SR, either, since they are not targetted by the spell.

I know Hide from Dragons is a 7th level spell, but the lack of save really troubles me. Could you make a 7th level Hide from Undead that also disallows a save? Or a no-save Hide from Devils? Or a no-save Hide from Humans?

 

[Brekki]

They should have made it a lower level "hide from blindsight and blindsense" spell, and let the normal invisibility and silence spells do the rest.

 

[UltimaGabe]

Hide from Dragons is found in the Draconomicon.

Do people feel that Hide from Dragons is balanced?

There are two Hide from ... spells in the PHB- one for animals, one for undead. Warded creatures can't touch the creature they are hiding from or attack anything; otherwise the spell ends for everyone. Hide from Animals differs from Hide from Undead in that animals don't get a save to be able to detect warded creatures, but Hide from Undead grants intelligent undead a will save to penetrate the ward.

Dragons, on the other hand, don't get a save. I don't think they get SR, either, since they are not targetted by the spell.

I know Hide from Dragons is a 7th level spell, but the lack of save really troubles me. Could you make a 7th level Hide from Undead that also disallows a save? Or a no-save Hide from Devils? Or a no-save Hide from Humans?

First off, it's a 7th-level spell. If you think it's significantly more powerful than other 7th-level spells, I'd like to point out things like Destruction, Forcecage, Greater Teleport, and Limited Wish. Those are all 7th-level spells, and would be useful against almost any monster- Hide from Dragons, regardless of how useful it would be against a dragon, is not going to be useful against the Tarrasque, and therefore is quite limited in its power. A "Kill Ice Mephits Named Bob With No Save" spell would be extremely powerful in a fight with an Ice Mephit named Bob, but against anything else it's completely useless, and is hardly as powerful as a "Kill Anything Without a Save" spell. Therefore, it shouldn't be given a high spell level simply because it would be powerful in one given situation, if it would be completely useless in any other situation. Hide from Dragons is already at one of the highest levels of spells as it is, as is only useful against one type of creature. If your campaign involves fighting dragons every five minutes, the spell would definitely merit a higher-level slot- but in that case I'd take it up with your DM. But chances are, it's not an issue.

As for making a more powerful Hide from Undead, that'd be pointless. The majority of undead already don't get a save, and so making a higher level one (especially with such a huge jump from 1st level to 7th) would just be redundant and pointless. I think it's fine as it is.

 

[Sejs]

It's used against dragons.

If it had a save, it would be useless. 9 times out of 10 the dragon would make that save.

 

[James McMurray]

Hide from dragons is ok in my opinion because most dragons are going to have other means of detecting intruders besides just their sensees (underlings and Alarm spells for instance). It is definitely strong when preparing to fight a dragon, but if the dragon casts Blindsight when his alarms go off, he'll be able to see the party just fine.

 

[Epametheus]

It's practically impossible to normally hide from dragons in the first place, between Blindsense and their substantial skill checks (a young adult dragon could easily have a +20 on spot and listen checks, without any magic to bolster the checks).

The spell exists pretty much because of the Hoardstealer PrC, which wouldn't work right without it.

Would a dragon with True Seeing or See Invisibility counter the spell? True Sight is a pretty reasonable spell for an elder dragon to have, actually...

 

[James McMurray]

Yep, a dragon with any form of sense enhancement (except perhaps See Invisibility, I'd have to read the spell) will couner Hide from Dragon's.

A much bigger balance issue is the Ring of Dragon Friendship. No dragon will ever attack you unless you attack it first. This item gaurantees you get the first shot in, which can be necessary when you go drago hunting. And it costs <30K.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I hadn't thought about the sense-enhancement spells. Would they work? Hide from X doesn't work by interfering with vision, hearing, scent, or blindsight; it simply stops the creature from perceiving you. True seeing could penetrate an illusion of invisibility, but might not help against a spell that blocks perception. Let's look at the text from hide from animals:

Animals cannot see, hear, or smell the warded creatures. Even extraordinary or supernatural sensory capabilities, such as blindsense, blindsight, scent, and tremorsense, cannot detect or locate warded creatures. Animals simply act as though the warded creatures are not there. If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients.

Sensory capabilities added or enhanced with magic would be blocked too, I think. Even true seeing and the like.

I'm thinking of using this spell as the basis of others- Hide from Devils, say. But I'm not certain about the no-save part.

 

[James McMurray]

Hide from dragons specifically hides you from the dragon's senses. It lists what is protected against, and blindsight / true seeing is not on that list. You are invisible to the dragon's normal senses, but if it enhances them he'll see you with no problem.

 

[Celtavian]

re

I don't think the spell is unbalanced. Sure, Joe Hoardstealer is going to get away with some nice gold and magic. But once the dragon wakes up he is going to be looking for Joe Hoardstealer, and Hide from Dragons only lasts so long. Then Joe Hoardstealer is going to be running for his life depending on how a powerful the dragon that he stole from is.