Hide Skill Confusion

[wedgeski]

The rules seem to suggest so. Of course, everyone with a bit of common sense makes its save against that suggestion.

I like the "you can move (skill rank) feet out of cover without being noticed" rule. Makes sense. You wait while he's looking the other way and sneak past. A game that doesn't care where you're facing needs to make some concessions.

Yes this was the bent of my question.

 

[shilsen]

The rules seem to suggest so. Of course, everyone with a bit of common sense makes its save against that suggestion.

I tend to believe that common sense is neither common nor necessarily particularly sensible, so I ignore facing completely. Makes life much easier for me. YMMV.

 

[irdeggman]

Using the PHB only, there is still one more possibility they are using for how they handle hide. Invisibility is a condition givin in the back of the book, most notably granted by the spell invisibility. Aside from not beeing seen (same as hide), defenders are denied their dex (same as hide), they are {NOT} considered flat footed against you (not mentioned in hide SRD, but 'clarified/added' in CAd), and invisible attackers gain +2 to attack targets that can not see them (not mentiond in hide SRD or CAd or SRD flat footed for that matter). {EDIT: I thought this was part of invisibility but don't see it in SRD.}

it is in the combat modifiers table.

Attacker is invisible: +2 to melee and ranged attack and defender is denied dex bonus to AC.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I tend to believe that common sense is neither common

Common sense is the least common of senses. Well known fact.

I ignore facing completely. Makes life much easier for me. YMMV.

Yeah. But you do have to give something to those who want to play "sneak up on someone while his back's turned on me"

 

[wedgeski]

I have a follow-up question regarding concealment and hiding in plain sight. From the SRD:

If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide.

First, what does 'observing you' technically mean? That they have line of sight? That you have ever stepped into the open in the radius of vision? What about NPC's or monsters who are distracted?

What about when the room is shadowy? Does the lack of illumination provide the concealment necessary to Hide, even if you're being 'casually' observed?

What about a blur spell?

I feel I should have answered all these questions to my satisfaction years ago, but I've got no problem making myself look like an idiot for a day or two.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I've got no problem making myself look like an idiot for a day or two.

Would you mind wearing your undergarments on your head? And could you use a funnel as trumpet?

 

[wedgeski]

Would you mind wearing your undergarments on your head?

Where else would I wear my undergarments?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Where else would I wear my undergarments?

What about... UNDER your nose. That's why it's called undergarment. They filter out the smell of the carnage.

 

[irdeggman]

I have a follow-up question regarding concealment and hiding in plain sight. From the SRD:

First, what does 'observing you' technically mean? That they have line of sight? That you have ever stepped into the open in the radius of vision? What about NPC's or monsters who are distracted?

What about when the room is shadowy? Does the lack of illumination provide the concealment necessary to Hide, even if you're being 'casually' observed?

What about a blur spell?

I feel I should have answered all these questions to my satisfaction years ago, but I've got no problem making myself look like an idiot for a day or two.

The FAQ might help some with these:

Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is, invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class features?

Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her (even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a character to make a move action to hide immediately after making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed.

As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding place within the plants, having never left the area of concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide check.

The third part of your question changes the situation entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re incredibly effective.

A character with the hide in plain sight class feature (described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver). The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be hidden when she delivers the attack.

The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) allows the character to make a Hide check in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden, move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make a Hide check to hide after the attack.

Put all three of these elements together—such as in the hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get:

1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment).

2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be considered hiding when he attacks).

3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or concealment while in natural terrain).

4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”