Hiding and Blindness (updated)

[Hriston]

I wanted to do something like the latter part, but p177 "An invisible creature can't be seen, so it can always try to hide". "Always" is strong wording, so that made me feel that circumstances should be able to exist where your position is known, but you can still try to hide.

I don't think "always" is supposed to cover corner cases where an invisible creature's location is known.

For example, an invisible creature is being held in a grapple by an opponent. Can the creature hide from its opponent even though it can be felt to be in a precise location? I don't think so.

Another example I've referenced in past debates on this subject is an invisible creature confined to a box with no means of movement or escape. Can such a creature hide from someone who knows the creature is in the box? I don't believe it can.

This came out of numerous cases of running through magical darkness, as well as pitch black underground. I would rather say that a moonlit night was dim light, than treat all darkness without reservation as not pitch.

Mechanical darkness covers both moonlit nights and pitch darkness, and its effect on vision is the same as that of an area of opaque fog or dense foliage. Dim light, on the other hand, is reserved for twilight or nights when the full moon is at maximum. Given the lack of restriction on movement for dark conditions under the current rules, perhaps a fourth category of illumination, total darkness, may be in order for your games.

 

[Hriston]

There's a big difference between pitch black (ever been in a cave when they turn off the lights?) and varying degrees of dimness. I think 5E oversimplifies things a bit - I've walked through the woods at night with no light. As long as I stayed on a path I could move at full speed. Off the path and through the woods? I would have been tripping or walking into a tree branch on a regular basis unless I was going slow.

In a pitch black cave? Where I'm truly blind? It would be difficult to not walk into a wall, much less over the edge of a cliff without using a ten foot pole as a probe.

So wide open area with zero obstacles? No problem but extremely rare to the point of being practically non-existent for any significant distance. Walking around when it's not pitch black? Depends on how dark and the terrain.

This is a good argument for a fourth category of illumination. Personally, I'm fine with the three we have.

 

[clearstream]

For example, an invisible creature is being held in a grapple by an opponent. Can the creature hide from its opponent even though it can be felt to be in a precise location? I don't think so.

Another example I've referenced in past debates on this subject is an invisible creature confined to a box with no means of movement or escape. Can such a creature hide from someone who knows the creature is in the box? I don't believe it can.

You raise some great examples here, that emphasise the value of differentiating hidden from unseen on the basis of "location not known". In both examples, the creature (invisible, or in the box) may well be unseen. It's location however is known and it is prevented (by the grapple, by the box) from making it unknown. It could well be worth expressly calling that out.

Mechanical darkness covers both moonlit nights and pitch darkness, and its effect on vision is the same as that of an area of opaque fog or dense foliage. Dim light, on the other hand, is reserved for twilight or nights when the full moon is at maximum. Given the lack of restriction on movement for dark conditions under the current rules, perhaps a fourth category of illumination, total darkness, may be in order for your games.

The movement restrictions deal more with the blinded condition (effective or actual), while being agnostic about its cause. For example, the spell fog cloud can be a cause of the blinded condition, even on a sunny day.

 

[Hriston]

You raise some great examples here, that emphasise the value of differentiating hidden from unseen on the basis of "location not known". In both examples, the creature (invisible, or in the box) may well be unseen. It's location however is known and it is prevented (by the grapple, by the box) from making it unknown. It could well be worth expressly calling that out.

Yes, I think so. Getting back to, "An invisible creature can’t be seen, so it can always try to hide." I think this should be understood to apply under normal conditions in which an invisible creature has freedom of movement, so that once quiet it can obfuscate its location.

The movement restrictions deal more with the blinded condition (effective or actual), while being agnostic about its cause. For example, the spell fog cloud can be a cause of the blinded condition, even on a sunny day.

So can the outdoors at night under a full moon that isn't at maximum, as can trying to see something in a dense forest. That's my point.