hiding = invisible?

[Pielorinho]

So how would y'all handle this in the thick of battle? If the rogue's buddies are attacking the thug, and on the second round of battle the rogue emerges from hiding to attack?

Does the rogue automatically treat the bad guys as flatfooted vs. his attacks until the thug's next action?

Or does the rogue choose either to remain hidden through the entire attack (at a -20 penalty) or to reveal himself entirely and gain no advantage (but no hide check)?

To me, it seems there should be a middle ground, in which the rogue hides well enough that the bad guy doesn't know he's there until the attack comes, but after the attack the rogue is revealed.

Daniel

 

[Zodar]

From the SRD:

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

From this, I gather that you have to be aware of your opponent (which necessitates (sp?) a spot check, or something similar) to be able to act (ie. roll initiative).
The thug obviously failed his spot check and so is blissfully unaware of the rogue - until he feels the dagger/sword/stick of poking eyes out enter his body.
In a combat situation where the rogue had already been noticed before hiding himself, I'd absolutely agree with the -20 to the hide check. But from what little information we have, I'd have to go for the 'determinig awareness' rules as described above, since we don't know if combat has already started or not.

 

[the Jester]

no... no... no...

This is the difference between hiding and invisibility. Unless you hide while attacking (ie. take the -20 dc check)... your target becomes aware of you before the attack, so no SA damage.

It takes more than awareness to deny sneak attack damage. You must have your dex bonus. If the rogue has initiative on you, he's got you. If he's springing unseen from the shadows he's got a surprise round on you.

 

[Pielorinho]

What about cases in which the opponents are aware of the rogue's allies, but not of the rogue himself? What sort of hide check does the rogue make on the second round of battle in order to gain a sneak-attack?

Daniel

 

[RigaMortus]

I agree with Zodar...

 

[HeathcliffeSlocumb]

I have always handled it exactly as Zodar quotes from the SRD. That seems to fit the scenario.

 

[MerakSpielman]

This is the way it would work:

Rogue hides.
Thug wanders by and fails to Spot rogue.
Thug is UNAWARE of rogue.
Rogue is AWARE of Thug.
Rogue decides to attack Thug. Surprise round begins.
Rouge stands up, casually walks over to Thug, and sticks a knife in him. As soon as the Rogue stands up, he is no longer hidden.
Because it is the surprise round, and the Thug has yet to act, the Thug is flatfooted.
Flatfooted creatures lose their Dex bonus.
Creatures in a situation where they are denied their Dex bonus (even if they don't have one) are eligible for Sneak Attack damage.
The Rogue rolls a normal attack roll, perhaps at a slight advantage becuase the Thug is flatfooted.
If he hits, he gets to add his Sneak Attack damage to the regular weapon damage.
Roll initiative.

NOTE: If, during the first round of combat, the rogue goes before the Thug, the Thug is STILL flatfooted and the Rogue can STILL apply Sneak Attack damage if he hits (the Thug will be flatfooted until his initiative is reached).

 

[Pielorinho]

I agree with Zodar for a situation where the rogue attacks ASAP, but if he's addressing what happens when a rogue delays until the second round of combat (say, betweeen the thug and the rogue's fighter friend), I'm too clueless to understand. Could someone spell it out for me?

Daniel

 

[Abraxas]

So... therefore, you cannot ready to SA from a hidden position, just using hide, unless your move equiv. action during the round you readied was hiding at -20.

Unless combat has not already started - in which case you can't ready an action at all. If combat has not started, and the target's spot check did not beat the rogues hide check, when the rogue attacks the target is flat footed - even if he sees the rogue - so the rogue can make a sneak attack (unless the target has an ability that lets him retain his dex bonus when flat footed). And even if combat has started, if the target hasn't taken his first action he is still flat footed and subject to sneak attacks.

Oh, and in those cases where it would apply, if the rogue does make his hide check with the -20 penalty I would treat him as invisible for his attack and give him the appropriate bonuses - he has in fact hidden while attacking so never becomes visible.

 

[mikebr99]

I agree with Zodar also, and MerakSpielman ... but suprise can only happen at the beginning of combat... once combat has started, and everyone has acted (ie. no longer flat-footed), no one in combat can be suprised. Mike