High Charisma=Obsessed with sex?

[Delgar]

Blaming Piratecat is always the prudent thing to do.

Damn you Delgar, now I'm tempted to read his story hour! Do you know how long that thing is?

It's incredibly long but well worth the read. You could just read mine it's nice and short at the moment.

Delgar

 

[Voadam]

For some reason people keep beleiving Charisma = good looks

Prehaps because as defined in the PHB one of the characteristics of Charisma is physical attractiveness. It is not the only characteristic of Charisma and there can be valid ugly high Charisma characters, but it is also perfectly valid to portray a high Charisma character as good looking.

 

[Barastrondo]

I had in mind someone more like Aramis (or was it Athos -- I get the two confused) from the Three Musketeers.

Aramis. Athos was the one with the angsty romantic past.

The idea that sex interfere's with the pursuit of spiritual matters is a gnostic/catholic holdover from the real world and doesn't necessarily have any bearing on a fantasy world.

True to the "doesn't necessarily have any bearing on a fantasy world," very much so, yes. But it's a more widespread thing than just gnosticism and Catholicism. Pops up in many Eastern religions, for instance. I would consider it to be a more universal tenet among religions than repressed Westerners like me might at first assume. Celibacy might not equal Lawful Good, but a responsible attitude toward sex (which is more the point) is probably both Lawful and Good. Just how conservative you define "responsible" as being is really up to you.

And paladins aren't on a quest for spiritual perfection to the same extent that certain clerics would be (not that that class really represents that idea either) -- after all, violence would equally be a distraction.

Violence might be a distraction — or it might not. Ever read the Bhavagad Gita? The whole poem is stuck in the middle of this Indian epic where a prince suddenly has doubts on the battlefield, and asks his charioteer Krishna if it's okay to go out and kill his enemies like this. The Gita is Krishna's response; and among other things, it does point out that violence is not the same as bloodlust, and that sometimes it's no bar to spiritual advancement. Properly applied. This takes place in the same cosmology where brahmins attain supreme spiritual power from self-mortification, abstinence from worldly things, or whatnot. Depending on the religion/cosmology, being in a violent profession would not necessarily rule out spiritual perfection as something that can be aspired to, and eventually achieved.

Paladins, to my mind, are the frontline soldiers of lawful good. They are not necessarily attached to a religion, they are not necessarily attached to a spiritual quest for anything, they are just out there in the trenches trying to make the world a better place. They've got a code of behavior, but sexual proclivities aren't necessarily a part of that code; in fact, it's simply assumed by most players that it is. No description of the code I've ever seen in any sourcebook mentions it at all.

I look at it as having to do with the requirement of filling the "act with honor" tenet. You know, "my intentions are purely honorable"? The paladin should be the kind of guy that sets his date's father at ease.

 

[Desdichado]

Oh, I agree with everything you're saying. I'm merely pointing out that it doesn't have to be that way, it's merely an assumption that's easy for us to make because it's in keeping with our own western tradition of "holy warriors" like the Templars or the like. Who weren't really celibate or holy either, although at least they were in theory.

 

[Sixchan]

I take it as a general rule that the alignment of the god(dess) of love/sex is a good indicator of how much sex paladins can have. If s/he is good or lawful, then It's probably OK for Paladins to have a (fairly) normal sex life. If s/he's Lawful Good, then I'd say Paladins can get it on when they like (particularly Paladins of said god(dess). Of course, if s/he's neither of the two then Sex by Paladin is probably frowned upon at best, and something earth-shatteringly bad at worst.

 

[Barastrondo]

Oh, I agree with everything you're saying. I'm merely pointing out that it doesn't have to be that way, it's merely an assumption that's easy for us to make because it's in keeping with our own western tradition of "holy warriors" like the Templars or the like. Who weren't really celibate or holy either, although at least they were in theory.

Oh, sure! If somebody acted like a genuine historical Crusader in one of my games, you can bet he wouldn't be getting paladin status. I'm simply saying that although (and I agree) it's easy for us to assume that celibacy is de rigeur for paladins on account of our own Western cultural archetypes, said archetypes aren't limited to Western culture. (Repressed Westerner-types like me like to point out that we're not some kind of social aberration, y'know?)

I take it as a general rule that the alignment of the god(dess) of love/sex is a good indicator of how much sex paladins can have.

Personally, I think it's funny that a lot of D&D goddesses of love (Sune, f'r instance) are modeled after Aphrodite, who isn't (mythologically speaking) a goddess of love. Beauty and fertility, yeah; but not love. If sex and love are theologically considered the same thing, that could easily create a pretty radically different social environment than the average D&D campaign.

 

[barsoomcore]

(Suddenly I have this image of Mary Poppins as a paladin of the goddess of love. I'm strange.)

I always assumed Mary Poppins WAS the goddess of love.

Sigh.

Now who's strange?

What was the question?

 

[Angcuru]

The idea that sex interferes with the pursuit of spiritual matters is a gnostic/catholic holdover from the real world and doesn't necessarily have any bearing on a fantasy world.

Reply:
True to the "doesn't necessarily have any bearing on a fantasy world," very much so, yes. But it's a more widespread thing than just gnosticism and Catholicism. Pops up in many Eastern religions, for instance. I would consider it to be a more universal tenet among religions than repressed Westerners like me might at first assume.

I don't know about that. While the idea is present in many religions, it isn't present in all. However, it is most prevalent in the Caltholic relgion, which looks down upon sex as a BAD, BAD, EVIL, NAUGHTY THING. Most other religions with the sex=not that spiritual complex just take the attitude that celibacy is not a requirement, but a sign of a really good priest. Kinda like the difference between your average Joe Preacher and a Saint.

Maybe the issue is that most PLAYERS are obsessed with sex ( being generally male and in their sexual prime ).

I would say this is basically true. Most guys of the above description have sex on the brain 24/7, and when they aren't thinking of something in particular, the backup thought, sex, somes into play. I.E. Swinger.

But this is just the majority. A lot of people (like myself) aren't sex-obsessed. Personally, I don't go for the swinger lifestyle, I'm more of a one woman man. And most of my characters are like that as well. It's actually kind of frustrating being like this in high school, where the basic criteria is that if you aren't a sex maniac, you are by default presumed to be homosexual. Not so much offensive as annoying, though. Thankfully I graduate in less than 3 weeks. YAY!

I think we're all hung up on sex in one way or another, and that is reflected in our characters.

See above reply.

I have never seen anything good come from representing marriage, romance or love in game. Furthermore, the chances that trying to portray such things will go wrong and the consequences thereof make them things I'm unwilling to include in my campaigns.

It all depends on the players, man. I'd never bring that sort of thing up with my current group, as the most vocal of us is a sex-fiend with a high-school mentality(in terms of what I stated above.) But a good romance can easily take place in-game, if the players are mature enough to handle it(which rules out my group and I'd suspect a lot of others as well). Just remember that it takes two to create a romance, and if only one player is interested, either the DM or another player is required, or no romance.

The best gaming experience I've had was actually in the CRPG, Baldur's Gate II. (If you don't have it yet, go pick it up!) While this isn't really 'gaming', it's close enough. ANYway, the game was THAT good IMO because your character can, depending on his actions, attitude, speech, etc. eventually strike up a romance with a party member. While the romances are basically pre-scripted(NPCs in a CRPG, so this is to be expected), they are done well enough so that if you go with the romance, it really becomes a very rewarding experience.

If the players actually roleplay as if they are their characters, you can get a good in-game romance going, which will add a lot to the game. Just remember that gaming is about having fun while telling a story. Different people go for different things, so the romance factor is not for everyone.

For an example of a romance-laden story, check out my story hour, updated every week or so. It's in the beginning stages, but it's got a LOOOONG way to go.

 

[babomb]

They've got a code of behavior, but sexual proclivities aren't necessarily a part of that code; in fact, it's simply assumed by most players that it is. No description of the code I've ever seen in any sourcebook mentions it at all.

P. 37 of The Complete Paladin's Handbook (2e) mentions both chastity and celibacy as "possibilities," along with humility and industry.

Re: the males-playing females, I've definately noticed that trend. One of the players in my group made a female cleric. She had an 11 Charisma. The player, I think, decided that she was hot but had an attitude or was shy or both ("to make up for" her being hot). She discovered my male sorceror was a stowaway on a boat, and I cast charm person on her to convince her not to tell anyone. You can imagine the jokes. I think the rest of the players decided our characters were an "item" after that.

Then there was the time my paladin grappled a female NPC. I pinned her to the ground and tried to get interrogate her. I saw it as providing us with information and avoiding needless killing. The rest of the group saw it as, "Dude, why do you keep trying to grab this chick? Do you love her or something?"

 

[s/LaSH]

I don't know about that. While the idea is present in many religions, it isn't present in all. However, it is most prevalent in the Caltholic relgion, which looks down upon sex as a BAD, BAD, EVIL, NAUGHTY THING. Most other religions with the sex=not that spiritual complex just take the attitude that celibacy is not a requirement, but a sign of a really good priest. Kinda like the difference between your average Joe Preacher and a Saint.

Actually, this only holds true for the past thousand years or so. See, before then, celibacy was only practiced by some obscure orders, and common priests were free to marry etc.

Then someone from an obscure order got the Papacy.

In fact, I recall reading that American Puritans many centuries ago, when a traveller stopped at their farmhouse for the night, would offer their daughter's bed, and if she happened to get pregnant they'd have a wedding. It's not quite the image we get nowadays, which is why I find history so fascinating.

Personally, I blame Victorians for prudishness. But I also think they destroyed the fairy. Rant rant rant.