High HP feel a little too high?

[keterys]

What's better, slightly wounding several creatures or taking one of them out of the fight, so that it can no longer hurt your party?

Obviously taking one out. That's not necessarily the wizard's job.

At low levels, the damage is a high enough % of a creature's hp that it actually does serve as a measure of "control." But at higher levels, the damage is so insignificant compared to a cerature's hp

1d6 + Int at 1st level is 7.5 damage against creatures with 30 hp instead of 45 against a creature with 278 hp. So 25% went down to 16%. That's certainly lower but it doesn't seem insignificant.

And this, plus the endless boredom of long, drawn out combats in which at-wills are used for dozens of rounds are the main reasons I have a problem with how much hp outpace damage at higher levels.

Is this based on actual play experience? *curious*

4e was supposed to be mathematically well thought out, where the "sweet spot" stays throughout all 30 levels. But it's very obvious to me that this isn't the case at all.

Can you show this mathematically, since it's obvious? Creatures gain hp in a fairly linear fashion, while damage increases in a slightly less straightforward fashion via gaining more powers (encounters and dailies), magic items, additional damage from crits, feats, etc, but it should be viable to examine over level ranges at least.

It is definitely key to realize that the fights are intended to take several rounds, no matter what level you are, though.

 

[Dormain1]

I too am concerned about the high level of HP everything has

PCs I can understand, people want to keep them alive longer

and with minions you dont want other monster types dying with one hit so bump them up a bit too

but from what I have played and DMed so far I think that the hp amonts the monsters have is too much, I can understand brutes and soldiers having a few and being hard to drop but why skirmishers and elites and god forbid solo's

Dnd i thought should be encouraging the roleplaying aspect and "MAD" new skills everyone has, not worrying that the PCs have spent their dailies and encounter powers now it becomes a grind to kill non minions, strikers are really the only ones who can deal sufficient damage constantly to kill things in a reasonable amont of time

How long would it take to kill something with just at wills and basic attacks only? remeber the guidlines assume the PCs will miss 50% of the time (such as a dragon, yes and I know on most occasions they will have their encounters), how many encounters are players meant to get through in a day until they really need to rest?


I am enjoying the new edition but do not believe it has hit the sweet spot as others have said

possible solutions are to increase the number of dailies and encounter powers

or reduce the number of HP monsters have

ohh and Dance I don't think you can spend 2 action points in an encounter let alone a rd

 

[ForbidenMaster]

I tend to agree. I won't know for sure until I see how synergies play out at high level, but I suspect that TPK rates will increase as levels increase.

Bottom line is that high level monsters have about 8 to 20 (or more) times as many hit points each whereas PCs only have about 6 to 7 times as many hit points each.

Additionally, PCs only do about 3 to 5 times as much damage at high levels than at low levels. High level combats have got to take a real long time (along the lines of 3 to 4 times as many rounds as first level ones).

Have to as in thats how it works, or have to as in thats what you are assuming. My group has yet to actually start a 4ed campaign yet, all we have done so far is draw up a few characters at different levels (5, 15, 25) and play a few combats with each, and in comparison to our 13th level 3.5 campaign, combat is lighting fast even at 25th.

Maybe youre right in that it takes a lot of rounds, it definitely takes a lot more then 3.5, but the over all combat is a lot shorter, so the feeling of doing the same thing over and over again with at wills doesnt seem anywhere as boring as in 3.5 because you dont actually spend a lot of time on them.

We havent done a Solo yet, so we will have to see about that, but combat is by no means a drag when you get down to at wills.

 

[Dormain1]

1d6 + Int at 1st level is 7.5 damage against creatures with 30 hp instead of 45 against a creature with 278 hp. So 25% went down to 16%. That's certainly lower but it doesn't seem insignificant.

Acually a 10% drop is rather significant as would be a 10% gain sure you will have a few items an other things which may increase the damage a bit but should PCs require being optimised to kill things in a reasonable amount of time

[/quote]

Is this based on actual play experience? *curious*

I have played and DMed, and as someone who prides himself on being tactically minded and not a bad optimiser I fear that others will struggle, sure a few bumps along the way as players learn the new rules are to be expected but I struggle to see how a group of PCs are going to be able to fight more than a few encounters a day if they get surprised or are attacking a fortified location without a long rest

Can you show this mathematically, since it's obvious? Creatures gain hp in a fairly linear fashion, while damage increases in a slightly less straightforward fashion via gaining more powers (encounters and dailies), magic items, additional damage from crits, feats, etc, but it should be viable to examine over level ranges at least.

It is definitely key to realize that the fights are intended to take several rounds, no matter what level you are, though.

I have no problem with encounters taking several rds (unlike 3.5 which i think we are currently averaging 2-3rds for a lvl 20 encounter)quick question as I dont have my books with me (darn work)

how many rds would it take any one character to defeat any one monster?
ie striker v skirmisher, fighter v soldier etc

I thought encounter and daily powers were to add to the encounter and make it easier as too were the synergise which playing as a group does

I think part of the problem maybe assuming that PC's have all their daily's and encounter powers for all combats that that out and I think you may see a problem

 

[Dormain1]

Have to as in thats how it works, or have to as in thats what you are assuming. My group has yet to actually start a 4ed campaign yet, all we have done so far is draw up a few characters at different levels (5, 15, 25) and play a few combats with each, and in comparison to our 13th level 3.5 campaign, combat is lighting fast even at 25th.

Maybe youre right in that it takes a lot of rounds, it definitely takes a lot more then 3.5, but the over all combat is a lot shorter, so the feeling of doing the same thing over and over again with at wills doesnt seem anywhere as boring as in 3.5 because you dont actually spend a lot of time on them.

We havent done a Solo yet, so we will have to see about that, but combat is by no means a drag when you get down to at wills.

We too didn't find a problem with short combats etc, but once you have been in a tough encounter where most have blown their dailys try another combat 10 min after and see how well they do and how long it takes

the solo encounters only get dull if as Miles said the PCs just stand there and swing, I remember my eladrin wizard fey stepped into combat just to grant other party members flanking against a dragon, sure I didn't stay there long and continued sustaining the flaming sphere he had going but I can see how long it would take if evn a few PCs had blown their dailys or just plain missed which is what we are to expect 50% of the time

 

[Jack99]

High HP is high. Even Mearls admitted that he might have screwed it up just a li'l.

Holy Batman!

I believe you read way too much into his post.

 

[Falling Icicle]

1d6 + Int at 1st level is 7.5 damage against creatures with 30 hp instead of 45 against a creature with 278 hp. So 25% went down to 16%. That's certainly lower but it doesn't seem insignificant.

The 1d6 + Int is for an at-will spell. Meteor Swarm is a spell a Wizard can only use once per day and the other few daily attack powers a Wizard gets each day are going to be even weaker than that.

Is this based on actual play experience? *curious*

Yes and no. I did run my group through the adventure against the 4th level dragon, and that battle alone literally took 4 hours. After blowing their one daily and one encounter spell, the rest of the fight was just flinging at-wills, and it got really boring. And this was a very low level fight. I haven't played a high level game yet, but the math speaks for itself.

Can you show this mathematically, since it's obvious? Creatures gain hp in a fairly linear fashion, while damage increases in a slightly less straightforward fashion via gaining more powers (encounters and dailies), magic items, additional damage from crits, feats, etc, but it should be viable to examine over level ranges at least.

Well, let's take a look at the at-will spells first. Assuming a character puts every ability point he can into his primary ability score, he's gaining 8 points in it over the course of his career. That translates to a +4 hit/dmg modifier. Then, add in the +6 you can get from a weapon or implement, and you have +10 from where you started at level 1. Also, the [W] doubles, which can be anywhere from 2.5 (d4) to 6.5 (d12) average damage. Magic Missile, for example, would go from 2d4 + 5 (avg 10) to 4d4 + 15 (avg. 25) damage. This is at level 30, mind you. So youre doing about 2.5 times as much damage with MM at level 30 as you were at level 1. Now, you can't tell me that creatures only have 2.5 times as many HP as they did at level 1! It's more like 8 or 9 times, or even more. Using your own example, the 1st level Wizard's MM is about 33% of a 30 HP creature's health. By contrast, the 30th level Wizard's MM is only about 9% of a 278 HP creature's health. Something is clearly very wrong.

Of course, the Wizard does have some additional daily and encounter powers over the 1/1 he had at level 1, so that's going to make a difference. But let's compare just how much more one of these does over a plain, old Magic Missile. Meteor Swarm, the hardest hitting Wizard spell in the game (at least immediate damage, some damage over time effects can do better over time) does 8d6 + Int. This same level 30 Wizard will be doing 8d6 + 15, for an average of 43 damage. That's less than 2 times the average damage of magic missile! And this is the hardest hitting spell Wizards get. Their other, lower level daily and encounter spells are going to be doing less, often MUCH less, than Meteor Swarm. And characters can't afford to unload all of their daily attacks in every fight, either.

Keep in mind, I'm not factoring crits into this, but since they are only 5% likely to occur, a character can easily go through an entire adventuring day without seeing a single crit. They're too rare to be statistically significant.

It is definitely key to realize that the fights are intended to take several rounds, no matter what level you are, though.

Sure, I never said I wanted the battle to be over in 2 or 3 rounds. I expect that the actual time for high level combat will be quite the other extreme.

 

[MeMeMeMe]

By contrast, the 30th level Wizard's MM is only about 9% of a 278 HP creature's health. Something is clearly very wrong.

After a meteor storm wipes out 20% of the hit points of the five creatures the players are facing, and other spells by the wizard and other characters whittle down more points, that magic missile will be able to take out such a character in fairly short order.

A level 30 solo, the Red Dragon: HP 1400.
It would take 56 successful magic missiles to take that out; assuming there are five pcs each of which have similar damage ability (most will have more, to be honest), that's around 10 hits. With a 50% hit rate (though the party may need to use some buffing effects, flanking, etc., to achieve this - but they may also massively exceed it): 20 rounds.
That's assuming no daily or encounter spells are used.
Considering the team has 4 daily powers, and 4+ encounter powers, each, along with epic and paragon powers, they could spend anything from 4-10 rounds each spending such powers, and each one will reduce the fight duration by more than magic missile would.
So, I don't really see the problem of being bored, spending dailies.

Also, if the encounter is designed properly, there could be interesting uses for powers, stunt opportunities, and so on, that keep it interesting.

 

[theNater]

how many rds would it take any one character to defeat any one monster?
ie striker v skirmisher, fighter v soldier etc

I wanted to look at this. For example purposes, I'll use a 30th level warlock(as a striker with "standardized" damage, rather than weapon damage) who is focusing on damage. Going infernal pact, life-stealer paragon path, eternal seeker epic destiny(but still using only warlock powers). A 16 con, 14 int and 13 cha at level 1, boosting con every chance and alternating between int and cha ends up with 24 con(+7), 19 int(+4), and 18 cha(+4). Use a +6 Rod of Reaving. Encounter and at-will powers only. Assume a monster with 280 hit points(1/5 of red dragon's 1400). Note that average curse damage is 10.5. Calculations are in the spoiler block.
[sblock]Round 1: Curse for 6 damage. Then Hellfire Curse. Average on 5d10 is 27.5, so average damage for a hit is 27.5+10.5+7+4+6=55. Divide in half for 50% chance to hit, then add the 6 guaranteed, and we get 33.5 for the first round.

Round 2: Spiteful Darts, average on 4d8 is 18, so 18+10.5+7+6=41.5, halved for 20.75.

Round 3: Warlock's Bargain, average on 3d10 is 16.5, so 16.5+10.5+7+15+6=55, halved for 27.5.

Round 4: Soul Scorch, average on 3d8 is 13.5, so 13.5+10.5+7+6=37, halved for 18.5.

Subsequent rounds: Eldritch Bolt, average on 2d10 is 11, 11+10.5+7+6=34.5, so average 14.25 per round with it.

280-33.5-20.75-27.5-18.5=179.75. 179.75/14.25 is about 12.6. So 12 or 13 rounds of using at-wills, 16 to 17 rounds total.

Note that a critical with Eldritch Bolt does an average of 20+18+7+6+27(average for 6d8)=78 damage, which is over 5 rounds worth of damage. The chance of critting at least once in 10 rounds is about 40%, and a successful crit makes the combat about 10-12 rounds long, or shorter if the crit occured with a stronger power.[/sblock]
For a warlock attacking a single creature and expending no daily resources, it takes 10-17 rounds to defeat it. There are any number of things the warlock can do to speed that up(Bracers of the Perfect Shot, for example, can reasonably trim two rounds from that, while an action point provides eternal seekers with two bonus actions).

 

[Minigiant]

Well a PC who starts with 16 in his main attribute, 4.5 average damage on his weapon/spell damage die, gains +1 on his magic attack item every 5 levels, +2 damage a tier on feats, PP, level and destinies; deals 7.5 + 70-90% his level with basic attack (+7-9 damage a tier). Going offensive with a 5+ average damage on his weapon/spell damage die and a 18 main attribute makes it 9.5 + 90% his level. Strikers add another +3-5 per tier for another 30-50%.

Monsters get around 25 + levelx5 HP so that's 5-7 hits to kill with at wills and basic attacks. 10-15 hits for elites, and near 40 for solos. Encounters and dailies shave off I'd say 3 hits a piece from my experience. With a 50% hit rate, this is too high man.