High level caster "fix:" Reasonable or Outrageous

[Wulf Ratbane]

And why is that a good thing?

Didn't say it was!

Just pointing out another "style" of high level play.

EDIT: I mean, wouldn't the ideal situation be that the BBEG is everybody's responsibility, and in no case is it a one-round affair?

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

Put me in the problem of "I don't see a problem with high level no save, no SR spells in principle."

Now, there may be problems with particular spells in practice, and I would worry about no save spells (like Otto's Irresistable Dance) more than no save, no SR spells like acid fog. If that is the case, though, the answer is to deal with those particular spells rather than to turn SR into a group shield mechanic.

 

[Sadrik]

Not to totally derail this but I like SR as representing a Save bonus vs. magic as opposed to an odd magic negation or the more normal ignore magic.
+2 for low SR
+5 for high SR
Stripping out the effect level/HD gives you can come up with: low or high. And if you think they should be Immune to certain effects give them Evasion and/or Mettle.

 

[ruemere]

[...]With the caveat that I'm playing devil's advocate here:

I'm not so sure what's wrong with forcing the casters to target around/away from SR-laden BBEGs, and/or to give the high-level fighters something really important to do (take out that BBEG).

It becomes a matter of spell selection and spell targeting-- both of which would change. But my concern would be that it forces the casters (in order to squeeze out the most effectiveness per spell/per action) to be buff buddies for the frontline fighters.

(For a really good demonstration of this in action: High-level D&D Online raids. The BBEG's are immune to almost every spell there is other than straight damage.)

My primary concern lies with nerfing AOE attacks. Evocation is pretty stumped now, lessening further its role is not a good idea. Oh, and in case I am not making myself clear, I refer to this:
1) If a creature with spell resistance is inside the area of effect when the spell is cast, the caster must make a check against SR. If the caster fails to penetrate the SR, the spell fails [Whole AOE effect is wasted because of an individual - me]. (If multiple creatures with SR are inside the area, only the highest applies.)

No amount of targeting is likely to help an evoker.

Secondly, I am all for standardizing spell descriptions, however, adding additional mechanic to saves is a bit awkward - there should be only a single layer of protection used (to simplify resolution step), and because of this SR should modify final result instead of adding another step and another roll.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

How about making SR more like Evasion, or allowing a second saving throw (or both)? What's the ability that allows you to make a second save versus an enchantment effect... Mettle?


SR is one of the things that seems to me to not work very well in 3.X. I think the key thing is to make the benefit something that is both simple mechanically, and also is thematically similar to other familiar effects, making it easy to recall when it comes up.

 

[Voadam]

I think SR is a poor mechanic. I play a high level caster. Having spells wasted is generally a poor game dynamic IMO. Having my eldritch knight self buff is fine for me. Driving my eldritch knight to be a party buffer sucks the fun out of it for me. I like having a few ranged attack spells and hate having them be useless against outsiders and dragons. I hate having them fail.

I conceptually dislike conjuration orbs that work like evocations except no SR. I dislike having conjuration be a better evocation. If the conjuration ones did less damage as in acid arrow I would be fine with their mechanical balance compared with evocations. We house ruled orb spells to be evocations with SR applicable in our games.

Increasing existing SR to apply to all spells (though I've used it for orb spells) and to nerf area spells is not an optimal solution IMO. I'd much prefer things like an alt SR or modifying problematic non SR spells.

 

[Voadam]

How about making SR more like Evasion, or allowing a second saving throw (or both)?

Plenty of attack spells with no saves but just attack rolls (rays). And the occasional wall type spells where damage just happens if you are in the area or consciously move through them.

 

[ExploderWizard]

It is kind of like the rogue problem, making casters with area spells nearly useless as long as a single SR opponent is mixed in with the rest of the crowd.

I believe caster dominance could be fixed a lot by leaving spells as they are and tossing out turn based initiative. The trade off for powerful spell effects is uncertainty of success.

The move to turn based initiative got rid of the best reason in the game for a wizard to use a wand or staff in combat.

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Plenty of attack spells with no saves but just attack rolls (rays). And the occasional wall type spells where damage just happens if you are in the area or consciously move through them.

Good point. Perhaps they would get a save to take half damage?

How much of a creature's power is wrapped up in SR? Would it be that big of a deal to nerf it? Because I personally would love to.

Another idea off the top of my head (building off of Wulf's "reactions" mechanic): what if a creature with SR could use a reaction to resist a spell? The demon holds out his hand, and the spell dissipates harmlessly - or it walks up to the Solid Fog, holds out his hand, and then passes through it.

 

[Sadrik]

Good point.

How much of a creature's power is wrapped up in SR? Would it be that big of a deal to nerf it? Because I personally would love to.

Another idea off the top of my head (building off of Wulf's "reactions" mechanic): what if a creature with SR could use a reaction to resist a spell? The demon holds out his hand, and the spell dissipates harmlessly - or it walks up to the Solid Fog, holds out his hand, and then passes through it.

SR = +X on saves and AC vs Spells

It would be nice to figure out a formula for X.

Perhaps give Evasion and Mettle in certain situations as well.