High level charecters in battle: the Air Power analogy

[Joshua Randall]

That's if they don't mob him in melee with Aid Another + Grapple.

Any self-respecting high-level spellcaster will be flying, precisely so that he can't be mobbed by the grunts.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Any self-respecting high-level spellcaster will be flying, precisely so that he can't be mobbed by the grunts.

Druids, flying? Unlikely. They'll probably want to wildshape into an elemental and beatdown eventually.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

Druids, flying? Unlikely. They'll probably want to wildshape into an elemental and beatdown eventually.

Well, some prefer wildshaped melee, others prefer summoning, blasting, or battlefield control (wall spells, spike growth, etc.)

A high-level druid who chooses to get up close and personal might WS into a large air elemental and whirlwind his foes with that 100' movement or use Flyby Attack. Remember, when you WS into elemental form, you do get the form's normal feats (unlike animal forms). On the other hand, the earth elemental is a popular form and the earth glide ability provides an even better defense than flying (going gets tough, drop into the ground).

Druid with elemental WS is tough vs. army of mooks. Druid without that will probably rely on stealth tactics.

 

[DarrenGMiller]

IMC, I call Wizards and Sorcerers "air support."

DM

 

[Lord Pendragon]

Stoneskin ablates - effectively it's 10hp/caster level extra to the HLC. 1000 archers with (obviously) Rapid Shot (human War-1 gets 2 feats - PB shot + rapid) = 2000 shots = 100 hits/round, IMC they'd be average ST 14 w mighty +2 bow for 1d8+2 = 6.5 damage/hit. Stoneskin max = 150 hp, so 23 hits will negate that, the other 77 including the 5 crits go straight to damage, effectively 87 hits x 6.5 = average 565.5 damage to the HLC... in one round. Now, with Imp Invisibility they can only fire at him if they know he's there, if they're firing at the generally correct area, 50% still automatically miss, so only 50 hits/round, so only 27 penetrate stoneskin on the first round, plus 2.5 crits is effectively 32 hits x 6.5 = 208 damage, which many Ftr-20s will survive. I doubt the HLC will want to stick around too long, though.

Our 9th-level party took on an army of goblinoids a few months back. Naturally I (the tactician) assumed hundreds of the goblins would have ranged weapons. The solution? Wind Wall. Completely negates enemy arrow fire. That, combined with the ranger and druid casting multiple Entangles, the wizard filling all his third and fourth-level slots with Fireball, and the paladin riding his griffon mount hitting (and obliterating) specific targets from the air, the army didn't stand a chance.

 

[A'koss]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with the analogy that HLers are akin to air power, they are far too versitile to be pigeonholed into such a limited category. They're not air power - they're everything power...

A team of HLers can fill virtually any role and can move from one role to another in a blink of an eye. Artillery, stealth, intelligence gathering, air power, etc., etc. and a level of mobility which makes them enormous threats to slow moving, LL armies.

If you can negate the opposing force's HLers you've effectively won the war unless the LL army is absolutely vast in number. Magic can easily counter LL missile fire. As I mentioned in the other thread, attacking at night under the cover of invisibility and flying out of range of infravision, major spellcasters can attack armies with impunity so long as their spells do not originate from their location. Summoned monsters (including Gate), shapechange, cloudkill, earthquake, weather control, walls of X, etc. Walls of X are also good to break up armies into managable chunks for the melee types. Charm and Dominate the right officers to do what you want and/or the right grunts to sabotage their own supply lines, use illusions to create disarray or distract from another target. Destroy their supplies and an army is done.

The bottom line is that HLers have such enormous range of capability that using them as just straight artillery is an unbelievable waste IMO. Especially since at this level you're going to have beings with such titanic intellects and wisdom that they should be like a surgeon's scalpel in a battle against LLers.

 

[Sarellion]

What happens if you add Prot.Arrows to the protective spells together with stoneskin? Ithey don´t add up but is the one still unharmed after the other one goes down?

 

[S'mon]

Our 9th-level party took on an army of goblinoids a few months back. Naturally I (the tactician) assumed hundreds of the goblins would have ranged weapons. The solution? Wind Wall. Completely negates enemy arrow fire. That, combined with the ranger and druid casting multiple Entangles, the wizard filling all his third and fourth-level slots with Fireball, and the paladin riding his griffon mount hitting (and obliterating) specific targets from the air, the army didn't stand a chance.

Yeah, a mook army is definitely beatable if you take it seriously. It's the PCs who assume they can't be touched who get into trouble.

Edit: Having said that, a goblin army of 50,000 will barely notice the few hundred goblins a 9th level party can take out with the above tactics. I've run a lot of these battles - in my experience a high level party can defeat a mook army in the thousands easily, but cannot defeat a mook army much over 10,000 in a single engagement unless the GM rules they are so scared of magic they all run away after taking 1% casualties; which is possible (similar things have happened IRL) but clearly won't always happen.

Edit 2: IMC if feeling mean I would most likely have the goblins be an antlike horde rolling across the landscape, maybe 2-3 goblins per 40' square*... there's no reason to keep in close formation unless there are enemy combat troops on the ground nearby. In my experience _that_ is how HLCs win battles, by acting as a force multiplier for mundane troops. If the enemy disperse the mundanes attack & slaughter them, if they stay in close order the area-effect spells slaughter them.

*eg: a 4000x4000 foot area with 2 goblins per 40' square will hold 20,000 goblins.

 

[S'mon]

What happens if you add Prot.Arrows to the protective spells together with stoneskin? Ithey don´t add up but is the one still unharmed after the other one goes down?

No, because they overlap & don't stack they both lose points from the same damage. The better tactic is to have the wizard ready to cast the 2nd one once the first is about to go down.

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

Yeah, a mook army is definitely beatable if you take it seriously. It's the PCs who assume they can't be touched who get into trouble.

That's my experience... As a player!

We've been thrown against several small armies. ~1000 ish.

First time was a real mess. 500 archers is not good for a group of HLCs who hadn't given much thought about buffing. Doh!

I'd quite agree, once we started taking these situations more seriously it was definitely beatable. Although we lack a druid, which would make these encounters much easier, I think.


The one I've been considering for the next time we run into this is Summon Monsters with DR/Magic and Trample. Then haste them. Woo! Triceratops appeals for some reason. Ought to spread some fear...


Stoneskin would be a bad choice - expensive and I forgot it ticks down... Wind Wall it is... Or not standing around in front of 1000's of archers.