High level charecters in battle: the Air Power analogy
- Thread starter TerraDave
- Start date
I think the analogy is dependent upon the assumption that one side has the high-level adventurers, and the other doesn't. All of these comparisons seem to talk about high-level spellcasters throwing meteor swarms and such around, and wiping out a bunch of 1st lvl soldiers.
But is that really the best use of resources? IMO, a fantasy battle would be more like those depicted in Legend of Huma. In those battles, there were your typical knights, footmen etc.....and high level warriors and spellcasters. Yes, the spellcasters started casting spells on the ordinary soldiers....until the enemy spellcasters noticed, and then it became a war between spellcasters while the ordinary warriors slaughtered each other.
I'd think if a general was leading an army, and some spellcaster started dropping fireballs on his guys, his next command's going to be to the great wizard Avarziel to take out the spellslingers on the other side, to take the pressure off the troops.
Another good book was the Iron Throne, for Birthright. In it, Michael Roele's army attacked the Gorgon's army. Both were very high level fighters...in the 15-20 range. They each had lots of troops who were lvl 1. Both were capable of hacking their way through hordes of faceless level 1 footmen etc. But as soon as these two high levelers found each other on the battlefield, they pushed through to each other, engaged in combat, and one of them died. They didn't just stand around single-handedly destroying the opposing army.
I think that in the volumes necessary to create armies, including swarms of high-level characters isn't economically feasible. How many kingdoms can afford them? And who would want to spend all that money on a resource, to take the chance that he gets 8 lvl 1 beginners tossing a net over him and dragging him down, or grappling him down and disarming him, or something like that? High-level warriors and other characters are effective, but I think most of the scenarios are assuming that the enemies don't have access to similar resources, and are doing nothing to counter it.
Banshee
But is that really the best use of resources? IMO, a fantasy battle would be more like those depicted in Legend of Huma. In those battles, there were your typical knights, footmen etc.....and high level warriors and spellcasters. Yes, the spellcasters started casting spells on the ordinary soldiers....until the enemy spellcasters noticed, and then it became a war between spellcasters while the ordinary warriors slaughtered each other.
I'd think if a general was leading an army, and some spellcaster started dropping fireballs on his guys, his next command's going to be to the great wizard Avarziel to take out the spellslingers on the other side, to take the pressure off the troops.
Another good book was the Iron Throne, for Birthright. In it, Michael Roele's army attacked the Gorgon's army. Both were very high level fighters...in the 15-20 range. They each had lots of troops who were lvl 1. Both were capable of hacking their way through hordes of faceless level 1 footmen etc. But as soon as these two high levelers found each other on the battlefield, they pushed through to each other, engaged in combat, and one of them died. They didn't just stand around single-handedly destroying the opposing army.
I think that in the volumes necessary to create armies, including swarms of high-level characters isn't economically feasible. How many kingdoms can afford them? And who would want to spend all that money on a resource, to take the chance that he gets 8 lvl 1 beginners tossing a net over him and dragging him down, or grappling him down and disarming him, or something like that? High-level warriors and other characters are effective, but I think most of the scenarios are assuming that the enemies don't have access to similar resources, and are doing nothing to counter it.
Banshee
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
As others have pointed out, high level characters aren't air power, they're everything power. However, looking at this a bit closer, a few things will become apparent:
1. Magic and magic items have dramatically different effects in a mass combat situation than in a skirmish situation. Normal D&D is a skirmish situation. Barbarian DR, Armor of invulnerability or admantine armor is nice but not a really big deal because you're taking a few hits for several dozen points of damage per hit--often from a magic weapon. In a mass combat situation, however, you may have 200 archers firing at you, each of whom hits only on a 20. So that's 20 hits for 4.5 points of damage each. Stoneskin or Protection from arrows? Nearly gone in 6 seconds. Armor of invulnerability? You take approximately 10 points of damage instead of 90. Adamantine armor, barbarian DR, or Righteous Might will have a similar effect.
Similarly, in a normal D&D skirmishes, flame strike and fireball compete as good sources of mass damage. In a mass battle, however, they are far less useful. Sure, fireball may well incinerate 40 foes in a very tight formation, but your unit of 200 archers can do at least as well. (And which is easier and cheaper to field? 200 archers or an arcanist powerful enough to launch 20 fireballs? (Assuming your archers carry 20 arrows) And which is harder for your enemies to kill?)
Fireball is not the big deal a lot of people think it is. Now, enter spells like firestorm, sunburst, and holy word. In the skirmish, they have their uses, but their full potential becomes apparent when you can fill up their entire areas with enemies. Those spells will devastate large armies. Fireball won't.
Third, range becomes a much more serious factor in large battlefield encounters. In the skirmish game, fireball and flamestrike are comparable. In a large, set battle, the ability to target foes six hundred feet away (only the 4th range increment for ordinary longbows) instead of having to wait until they're 200 feet way is a massive advantage for fireball. In practice, the importance of range means that feats like Enlarge Spell become much more significant. It also means that a lot of spells that seem like they would be useful--wall of force, lightning bolt, cone of cold, etc, are severly handicapped.
Even mundane equipment changes its usefulness. Tower Shields are OK in normal D&D. They offer always on Combat Expertise for fighters without Int. In a mass combat situation, however, the take cover option provides characters with immunity to archers. Tower shields are what give melee troops the ability to advance across an open field under fire from archers. Otherwise, they just get slaughtered. (So, to review, for PCs, tower shields=OK; for armies, tower shields=necessity).
2. Feats also make some very significant changes. Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes are particularly notable in this regard. Great Cleave is the reason that the high level blackguard duels the paladin one on one instead of mobbing him with his minions. The paladin would just great cleave through the minions and would therefore hit the blackguard just as often as if he had no minions there at all. Combat Reflexes and reach turn those minions into a positive liability if the character has great cleave. Each time a minion provokes an AoO, the blackguard loses a minion, and gets hit on the cleave.
3. As has been explored in other places, high level characters can do a lot. The one thing, however, that they cannot do is be everywhere at once. In Greyhawk, for instance, a high level barbarian might be able to hold the gates of Crockport against Iuz's footsoldiers for hours, but he won't be able to do that and hold the south wall where Iuz's minions have climbed up and are setting fire to the city.
4. The discussion of "high level" characters and mooks misses the very important in between ground of mid-level characters. The evil blackguard/barbarian can be wearing a fur loincloth and still doesn't need to fear mooks. A score of mid level paladins with spirited charge, however, will smite him into the ground in less than a round. Similarly, while a high level mage can devastate armies with sunburst, a group of mid-level mages with scorching ray or reciprocal gyre can ruin his day just as quickly as he slaughters the mooks. Mid level characters don't have the ability to reliably destroy large armies by themselves. However, they can be integral parts of those large armies and they are a significant threat to high-level characters.
1. Magic and magic items have dramatically different effects in a mass combat situation than in a skirmish situation. Normal D&D is a skirmish situation. Barbarian DR, Armor of invulnerability or admantine armor is nice but not a really big deal because you're taking a few hits for several dozen points of damage per hit--often from a magic weapon. In a mass combat situation, however, you may have 200 archers firing at you, each of whom hits only on a 20. So that's 20 hits for 4.5 points of damage each. Stoneskin or Protection from arrows? Nearly gone in 6 seconds. Armor of invulnerability? You take approximately 10 points of damage instead of 90. Adamantine armor, barbarian DR, or Righteous Might will have a similar effect.
Similarly, in a normal D&D skirmishes, flame strike and fireball compete as good sources of mass damage. In a mass battle, however, they are far less useful. Sure, fireball may well incinerate 40 foes in a very tight formation, but your unit of 200 archers can do at least as well. (And which is easier and cheaper to field? 200 archers or an arcanist powerful enough to launch 20 fireballs? (Assuming your archers carry 20 arrows) And which is harder for your enemies to kill?)
Fireball is not the big deal a lot of people think it is. Now, enter spells like firestorm, sunburst, and holy word. In the skirmish, they have their uses, but their full potential becomes apparent when you can fill up their entire areas with enemies. Those spells will devastate large armies. Fireball won't.
Third, range becomes a much more serious factor in large battlefield encounters. In the skirmish game, fireball and flamestrike are comparable. In a large, set battle, the ability to target foes six hundred feet away (only the 4th range increment for ordinary longbows) instead of having to wait until they're 200 feet way is a massive advantage for fireball. In practice, the importance of range means that feats like Enlarge Spell become much more significant. It also means that a lot of spells that seem like they would be useful--wall of force, lightning bolt, cone of cold, etc, are severly handicapped.
Even mundane equipment changes its usefulness. Tower Shields are OK in normal D&D. They offer always on Combat Expertise for fighters without Int. In a mass combat situation, however, the take cover option provides characters with immunity to archers. Tower shields are what give melee troops the ability to advance across an open field under fire from archers. Otherwise, they just get slaughtered. (So, to review, for PCs, tower shields=OK; for armies, tower shields=necessity).
2. Feats also make some very significant changes. Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes are particularly notable in this regard. Great Cleave is the reason that the high level blackguard duels the paladin one on one instead of mobbing him with his minions. The paladin would just great cleave through the minions and would therefore hit the blackguard just as often as if he had no minions there at all. Combat Reflexes and reach turn those minions into a positive liability if the character has great cleave. Each time a minion provokes an AoO, the blackguard loses a minion, and gets hit on the cleave.
3. As has been explored in other places, high level characters can do a lot. The one thing, however, that they cannot do is be everywhere at once. In Greyhawk, for instance, a high level barbarian might be able to hold the gates of Crockport against Iuz's footsoldiers for hours, but he won't be able to do that and hold the south wall where Iuz's minions have climbed up and are setting fire to the city.
4. The discussion of "high level" characters and mooks misses the very important in between ground of mid-level characters. The evil blackguard/barbarian can be wearing a fur loincloth and still doesn't need to fear mooks. A score of mid level paladins with spirited charge, however, will smite him into the ground in less than a round. Similarly, while a high level mage can devastate armies with sunburst, a group of mid-level mages with scorching ray or reciprocal gyre can ruin his day just as quickly as he slaughters the mooks. Mid level characters don't have the ability to reliably destroy large armies by themselves. However, they can be integral parts of those large armies and they are a significant threat to high-level characters.
Elder-Basilisk said:
Where is the Take Cover action detailed? I'm not sure I've seen it before. Is it in the 3.5 PHB or in Heroes of Battle or somewhere else?
As to your 3rd point, I think it's an excellent one. High-level characters are limited in availability, and even if that lvl 16 wizard is busy blasting units of infantry, he can't prevent other units from burning the rest of the city down around his ears at the same time.
Banshee
Elder-Basilisk
First Post
That would be found in the PHB/SRD description of the tower shield.
"However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so."
"However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so."
Banshee16 said:
But of course he can -- it called 'Gate'! 
Seriously, good points, all of them.
Personally, instead of air power in general, I'd tend to think high level characters play a role akin to aircraft carriers in modern war -- they are enormously powerful, versatile, and can diminate the entire war if unopposed. However, they are also irreplacable (at least for the duration of the war), and so must be protected at all times. Furthermore, about in a battlescape where sea supremacy (ie. the otherside also has HLCs), the carrier task force must preserve up to two-thirds of its combat power for self defense.
In other words, I'd expect that in D&D war, both sides would start by vying for air and sea superiority -- ie. HLCs fighting HLCs. This might take place in the form of several discrete assinations before war is even declared. Only after air and sea superiority is secured will the 'land forces' -- the low-to-medium level army -- begin to move.
Seriously, good points, all of them.
Personally, instead of air power in general, I'd tend to think high level characters play a role akin to aircraft carriers in modern war -- they are enormously powerful, versatile, and can diminate the entire war if unopposed. However, they are also irreplacable (at least for the duration of the war), and so must be protected at all times. Furthermore, about in a battlescape where sea supremacy (ie. the otherside also has HLCs), the carrier task force must preserve up to two-thirds of its combat power for self defense.
In other words, I'd expect that in D&D war, both sides would start by vying for air and sea superiority -- ie. HLCs fighting HLCs. This might take place in the form of several discrete assinations before war is even declared. Only after air and sea superiority is secured will the 'land forces' -- the low-to-medium level army -- begin to move.
A'koss
Explorer
You are also making the mistake in your examples of not fully realizing the utility HL characters bring to the game and not putting the right characters towards the right tasks. Please, if you're going to go toe-to-toe with an army, you're not going to foolishly stand there and let 200 archers fire away at you every round. Let the spellcasters deal with the army, use the fighters to teleport in, kill specific officers invisibly and under the cover of wind wall, fog clouds and walls of x and teleport back out.Elder-Basilisk said:
Cloudkill is an excellent spell to use against armies if used intelligently. If you can corner or slow targets, multiple applications of this spell are deadly since it moves and lasts a minute per level. Control the weather to create impeding terrain and visibility (mud, snow, etc.) and/or use illusions. And if you can use them in conjunction with a wand of cloudkill, at night, you can absolutely wreak havok on an army. You can use illusions to get armies to literally blunder into your cloudkills.
Overall, you want to operate as stealthily as possible, but that is easily achievable for a HL party. A smart HL party should be able to manhandle an army with impunity.
IMC a 12th level party backing up a human army of 1800 defending a ford vs a (mostly) orc horde of 3000 were certainly decisive; they could fireball etc the orcs from the air until the enemy retreated, the orcs had to stay in close order while within threat range of the human army. I find HLCs are far far less effective vs cavalry armies though, eg IMC the Mongali (Mongol) Horde are practically invulnerable to HLCs, even without factoring in their own Hakomon (Sorcerers). A War-1 mounted archer is a totally different prospect to a War-1 infantryman; apart from 3D movement they have in aggregate almost all the powers of an HLC. They can move fast (120' double move, 240' Run) and still shoot - hitting on a 20 you might as well 240' move. Playing with 3.0 Greater Magic Weapon, one Clr-7 could give everybody several +2 arrows for several hours, so Prot fr Missiles no good; and with the mobility of a mount Wind Wall can be easily moved around. Back in 2e in fact I saw a unit of 120 1st level Mongali drive off and nearly kill 2 18th-20th level PCs - a Fighter & a Conjuror (no abjuration, heh heh) who thought they had nothing to worry about... they took 3/4 of their hp damage in the first round.
A'koss said:
You'd be amazed how often this happens. Most players start off way too overconfident, probably 3e's general attitude encourages them in this. On their own, non-spellcaster HLCs have very little impact and are extremely vulnerable in my experience. You have to know how to use them - eg Ftr-20s can hold a bottleneck or lead your shock troops to break the enemy line, but don't plop them in the middle of the enemy army unsupported - Frazetta paintings look nice & all, but a mound of 100 or even 1000 War-1 corpses isn't worth your Ftr-20's life. Similarly with spellcasters; as has been noted spells like Fireball have little impact in larger battles, even a Sorcerer will use up all his spell slots without making much of a dent, especially if operating unsupported - allowing the army to disperse when fireballed and reassemble later. Combined arms is where it's at - a Sorc-12 can't beat 3000 orcs, but a Sorc-12 + 500 human infantry (or better, cavalry) might well do so.
kigmatzomat said:
Indeed - that's why you need to stop them. Are you saying you as GM wouldn't do this? It's very Tolkien...
IMC it'd be ca 25,000 1st, 12,500 2nd, 6,250 3rd, 3,125 4th, 1562 5th, 781 6th, 390 7th, 195 8th, 97 9th, 48 10th, 24 11th, 12 12th, 6 13th, 3 14th, 2 15th & 1 16th level goblins - mostly warriors, maybe 1% Adepts and other spellcasters, with a good number of Rogues etc.
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