High level charecters in battle: the Air Power analogy

[Hussar]

Something people seem to be forgetting in these discussions is siege weaponry. Why bother using those 200 archers when you can hammer away with a dozen or so heavy catapults. Now you don't need to worry about AC. A DC 15 skill check and you're guaranteed 3d6 damage/shot. Load them with pitch balls and it's bye bye buddy. Never mind that you have a range of almost 1/2 a mile.

An excellent take on mages in large scale wars is Stephen Erikson's Malazan series. Check it out. The cadre mages are almost custom built for a d20 treatment. In the books, the mages basically deal with enemy mages in order to protect their own troops. Assuming fairly even sides, the mages tend to stalemate eachother.

Think about it, groups of low level mages with extended wands of dispel magic make pretty good counter spellers.

 

[S'mon]

Something people seem to be forgetting in these discussions is siege weaponry. Why bother using those 200 archers when you can hammer away with a dozen or so heavy catapults. Now you don't need to worry about AC. A DC 15 skill check and you're guaranteed 3d6 damage/shot.

I guess that makes sense for a 'grapeshot' type attack. A big rock ought to do far more damage but be almost impossible to hit a lone man, though. IMC ballistae are popular - 6d10 dmg ranged touch attack.

 

[Urbannen]

To anyone interested in the this topic I would suggest reading The Annals of the Black Company by Glen Cook. The Black Company is a brigade of mercenaries that get hired to fight for a sorceress dictator who is trying to expand her empire and crush all rebellion therein (at least that's what happens in the first couple of books). Essentially every general on both side of the war is a high-level magic-user, an HLC. There is only a handful of these people, but each one is seen as being worth a small army on his or her own. In the terms of the conversation of this thread, the Black Company are the smaller band of medium-level characters who play decisive parts in battles, run tactical missions, and deal with the HLCs of the other side (and sometimes their own).

 

[TerraDave]

All very good. Thanks for all the replies
I will try to respond by just reiterating the whole Air Power thing

1) Dogfigthing Fighters: HLC (which is probably anything level 8+) supremacy can be devastating, but because of this, HLCs spend a lot of time battling each other, and this could absorb most of their time and resources.

2) Control of the sky brings many benefits: basically I am saying that Air Power is the best "modern analogy" for HLCs, better then tanks, artillery, etc (which might be good for mid or low level charecters) in part because of the wide raning impact. Control of the air adds airborn mobility and intelligence, not just firepower (and yes, finding and hiding aircraft has been a big part of the battle for air supremacy for decades). But it is true that magic is magic, and by its nature, you can do all kinds of things with it.

3) Airplanes cost a lot, but it may be a cost worth paying: There is little question that higher level charecters--even mid level charecters--are relatively rare and expensive. Though it really depends on the campaign on how rare or expensive. A kingdom could have one 14+ level HLC, or over a dozen, who would be willing to fight for it. But it probably doesn't have hundreds (though I guess in a planscape type campaing that would be possible).

3A) Based on RL, a small kingdom or city state can mobilise thousands if needed. A large kingdom or empire ten of thousands, including thousands of elite troops (highly trained longbowman, knights in full plate, Roman Legionaires). And historically, there have been hordes of 50,000, and larger! Atilla the Hun had 100,000 at one point. Of course, there can be smaller battles, but then the HLCs might be 8th or 9th level, not 15th.

4) Focus on high value targets: the Air Force loves to take out command centers, and hates to go after cheap soviet era tanks (though they can). When HLCs aren't going after other HLCs, then there are the seige engines, the elite troops, the medium charecters. Taking out 10 commoners with a fireball (fired foward at loose formation) is a real waste.

5) Aircraft can be shot down This is probably one of the main points of contention. The improved invisible wizard comes in and starts throwing spells around (stealth bomber), what countermeasures are there? My guess is that there is probably something, maybe invovling an adept with a wand of detect magic and crossbowman with enchanted bolts. Or the barbarian with the spiked chain, again, my guess there is something (charging heavy cavalry with lances?)

ok, keep discusing!

 

[TerraDave]

To anyone interested in the this topic I would suggest reading The Annals of the Black Company by Glen Cook. The Black Company is a brigade of mercenaries that get hired to fight for a sorceress dictator who is trying to expand her empire and crush all rebellion therein (at least that's what happens in the first couple of books). Essentially every general on both side of the war is a high-level magic-user, an HLC. There is only a handful of these people, but each one is seen as being worth a small army on his or her own. In the terms of the conversation of this thread, the Black Company are the smaller band of medium-level characters who play decisive parts in battles, run tactical missions, and deal with the HLCs of the other side (and sometimes their own).

I read this a while ago, in fact I think it has its own game know...good reads.

 

[Hussar]

Something to consider too though is there is a significant difference between air power and an HLC. If you're the king of a country, that HLC probably presents the largest single threat to you. Think about it. Unlike a bomber which has numerous safeguards and checks to make sure that someone doesn't go crazy and blow up something he shouldn't, the HLC in a given kingdom comes with no such command and control. A high level wizard makes a great ally, sure, but, if he ever disagrees with you as king, what are you going to do about it?

There might even be a subtle but very present push among the aristocracy for HLC's to meet with sudden, sharp accidents in the middle of the night to remove the threat they pose to the establishment. For the same reason our government doesn't let private citizens build nuclear weapons in their backyard, most kingdoms are going to be pretty unhappy about that umpteenth level finger wiggler taking up residence.

 

[Imperialus]

I liked the take on magic in the battlefield in the Sword of Truth series. I don't remember the exact quote but it was something like

"It's not my job to destroy the enemy, it's my job to keep the enemy from destroying you. When mages fight on your side it seems like a normal battle puncuated by moments of absolute terror and madness until the spell is countered."

The thing is, by the time any HLC's are through killing or driving off any threats to themselves their resources will be largely expended. Sure they might be able to let off a fireball or two into the ranks but most of their high level spells will have been expended. I personally see mid level characters doing the most damage to enemy rank and file. They have acess to spells and feats that can kill mooks quite efficently yet at the same time there are enough of them you can afford to loose a few.

 

[TerraDave]

Something to consider too though is there is a significant difference between air power and an HLC. If you're the king of a country, that HLC probably presents the largest single threat to you. Think about it. Unlike a bomber which has numerous safeguards and checks to make sure that someone doesn't go crazy and blow up something he shouldn't, the HLC in a given kingdom comes with no such command and control. A high level wizard makes a great ally, sure, but, if he ever disagrees with you as king, what are you going to do about it?

There might even be a subtle but very present push among the aristocracy for HLC's to meet with sudden, sharp accidents in the middle of the night to remove the threat they pose to the establishment. For the same reason our government doesn't let private citizens build nuclear weapons in their backyard, most kingdoms are going to be pretty unhappy about that umpteenth level finger wiggler taking up residence.

Great point! There is tendency to assume that HLCs will fall in line and fight for the establishment...hence all these modern war analogies. But politically, things could be different, I can't disagree. Of course, in modern society, you do have the issue of civilian control of the miliatary...

 

[S'mon]

Great point! There is tendency to assume that HLCs will fall in line and fight for the establishment...hence all these modern war analogies. But politically, things could be different, I can't disagree. Of course, in modern society, you do have the issue of civilian control of the miliatary...

See my orders of knighthood thread on just this topic.

Basically, if there's a big enough power disparity the HLC most likely _will_ become the ruler of the country soon enough, unless he's 100% loyal.

 

[TerraDave]

That is a topic worthy of another thread...but being the ruler means having to rule, not adventure...and most HLCs, at least from what I have seen, would not be very good rulers.