High Level NPC Class characters: What's your take on them?

[FoxWander]

I'd have to agree with Blue- it takes real XP to advance in a PC class. If your just living the average, everyday peasant (by "peasant" I simply mean "non-adventuring folk") life- you're limited to NPC classes. This is really the model most D&D worlds are based on whether they know it or not. There just isn't enough day in and day out excitement in the peasant lifestyle to justify levels in a PC class. Sure a rough year of goblin/orc raids might get the town defenders a level of fighter, but that should be about the limit. Almost every other example of the non-adventuring lifestyle can be handle, and quite well, by some level or combination of NPC class levels.

For a really good explanation of why this is so, and a very good guide to what level a peasant of a given age should be, see Sean Reynold's A theory about peasants. Using his system it's very easy to figure out NPC levels that should feel realistic. It's also quite easy to justify levels higher than that by increasing the hardships a given peasant has survived. But, realistically, without the "daily" trials and terrors that PCs must face (or a concerted effort by an NPC to specialize in some area- thus taking a PC class), levels in PC classes don't really make since.

 

[arscott]

I don't think it's entirely combat experience though. It seems like a wizard would be as capable of gaining levels via research and experimentation, or a cleric via religious devotion and spiritual meditation.

The difference between an adept and PC casters seems to be more about initial training and approach to magic than one of real-world experience.

I think the reason Adepts don't multiclass into wizard or cleric is more about the nature of multi-class casters:

An Adept 5/Wizard 15 might be more powerful than an Adept 20, but an Adept 6 is more powerful than an Adept 5/Wizard 1. Not a lot of adepts are going to be willing to be patient, staring over again from level 1. In fact, that's probably why they're adepts: It takes less time and effort than properly learning to be a wizard or cleric.

 

[Terwox]

Personally, I don't use NPC classes for important NPC's. If you want to keep that power gap, well, you'll run into the snag you have. I'd rather have a farmer who is tough in a scrap have a level or two of rogue or fighter, even if they make a bit less sense, than the six or so levels of commoner they'd need to be somewhere similar w/ that d2 hps.

I suppose it may not be what you're looking for, but I'd just make the NPC a cloistered cleric from UA.

 

[the Jester]

How often do you use or see high-level NPCs with levels in nothing except an NPC class (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, or warrior)?

Hardly ever (at least imc).

In fact, so far, never.

 

[Buttercup]

IMC NPC classes only have 10 levels. It's unlikely for Warriors and Adepts higher than 5th level to even exist, because if they had that much talent, they would have gone someplace to get proper training. And I have never had a commoner higher than 3 level. More than that, and I think you become an expert. I see commoners as the unskilled laborers of D&D, and if you have enough experience to be 4th level, you're hardly unskilled anymore, eh? Higher level experts & aristocrats make good sense to me, though.

 

[Staffan]

I run an Eberron campaign, and Eberron definitely has high-level people with only NPC classes. For example, Sharn has a 17th level commoner - a really old elf, who is pretty much the best chef in the world.

I am considering adapting the rules for NPC classes from Iron Heroes, where most NPC classes don't get HD at every level though.

 

[Bardsandsages]

It depends on the NPC's purpose. I have a 13th level NPC aristocrat that I designed that has been more than affective in stringing the party along to move his own plots forward. The NPC aristocrat class has a nice range of useful skills. For a person who spends all his time in courts and cities, there is no reason he would have other classes. And the party recently met a 14th level expert, a gnome who excelled at demolisions. This gnome spent his whole live developing and using explosives.

 

[Umbran]

... especially considering that high-level NPCs are more likely to have levels in a (PC) character class &/or prestige classes.

Why do you say that? The fact that my farmer NPC has had many and varied life experiences doesn't mean he ever wants to do anything but be a farmer. He has to choose to take a level in something else. Then, if we are applying a bit of "realism" he has to have the opportunity to learn those new skills. If there's nobodfy around that's a suitable teacher, why should he suddenly develop the class. This last goes doubly for presige classes, which generaly have a role-playing component for joining that many less adventurous folk wouldn't undergo.

For example, how often would you encounter a 20th-level Adept? Or a 20th-level Warrior?

First - how often would you encounter a 20th level anything? We can't answer your question until we know how common high-level characters are in general.

(I can feasibly see high level Experts, Commoners, and Aristocrats, but the other 2 classes seem like they'd be overshadowed by Fighters & Clerics/Druids.)

What does "overshadowing" have to do with it? In the real world, there's always someone better than you, right? You're always overshadowed by someone. That doesn't keep you from existing, or being a productive member of society. So, it's sub-optimal. That seems pretty realistic to me. Most people are sub-optimal

Don't consider NPC class combinations from the Min/Max perspective. Characters within the game world generally don't know diddly from the details. They're people, and they've made choices. The character who's done a whole lot of fighting, but had little or no formal training, may be described as a high-level warriror. If he hasn't had the opportunity or desire to concentrate that little bit extra on the act of fighting, there's no call to make him a fighter.

 

[Li Shenron]

How often do you use or see high-level NPCs with levels in nothing except an NPC class (adept, aristocrat, commoner, expert, or warrior)?

Never.

I actually use NPC classes only because published adventures have them, and I defintely don't spend time re-writing the stats of NPCs. But if it was up to me, I'd probably use NPC classes only at level 1 to represent a sort-of apprentice level, and the overwrite it with the real core class 1st level.

Maybe, because of skill ranks mostly, I could understand going as far as level 5. Beyond that, it's nonsense to me. I tend to think that those people are not adventuring, so they aren't really getting xp at all; if they are, they aren't warriors anymore but they rather become fighters/barbarians/etc.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I run an Eberron campaign, and Eberron definitely has high-level people with only NPC classes. For example, Sharn has a 17th level commoner - a really old elf, who is pretty much the best chef in the world.

IMHO, the best chef in the world should be an expert. But that's just me.

Umbran: I don't think it's a min/max issue, but rather a question of the disparity between overall power and what you term to be a sub-optimal set of available decisions. More to the point, someone with a +20 BAB has to, at some point, have "concentrate[d a] little bit extra on the act of fighting," given that he has much better BAB and more feats than, say, a 6th-level fighter (a quite respectable individual, at least IMC). At some point, a commoner just isn't a commoner any more, because he's too tough, skilled, and lucky to be "common." I think this applies to all the NPC classes except the Expert, where I can easily see a progression to 20th level or even beyond for a legendary craftsman (although I'd use the NPC class from Iron Heroes).

Anyway, IMC the NPC classes, with the exception of Expert, go only to 5th level. Warriors higher than 5th level are powerful enough to be exceptional individuals and thus get levels in fighting classes; aristos higher than 5th level are clearly doing something with themselves and get to take levels of another class (usually the IH Thief or Armiger), and commoners... well, they just stop being common at this point and either become Experts or get off the farm and do something else.