rushlight said:
The 20th level fighter in my campaign can dish out 200+ points of damage per round, given the right circumstances. The mage can come close, but only a few times before those spells are gone - but he can do it usually regardless of the abilities of the enemy. That's fairly balanced.
The fighter cannot dish out 200+ points of damage all day, any more than the wizard can cast instakill spells all day. This is one of the more common mistakes that people make. It doesn't matter how tough the fighter is, he's going to have to stop sometime -- if only because his pals have to stop, which means that means he has to stop too. Splitting the party is as dumb at high levels as it is at low, and one guy cannot solo the dungeon.
Therefore, just because the wizard can cast broken stuff once per day is not counterbalanced by the fighter being able to dish out 200+ points of damage all day. Heck, even if the fighter _could_ dish out 200+ points of damage all day, that doesn't justify giving anyone a magic kill-the-BBEG ability. And it's not like the wiz is impotent in all those other fights leading up to the BBEG either; the number of spells they can cast per day is huge, and even with Quicken Spell, they can't possibly chew through them all in one battle.
I don't see how those spells are more powerful than other 20th level abilities. Druids get awesome wildshape.
Which basically means they deal more damage. It doesn't change the basic parameters of the game the way true resurrect, wish, miracle, gate, astral spell, teleport circle, etc. can.
Hint: nobody ever complained about meteor swarm.
Fighters have a feat list a mile long to make them all nasty.
Whose utility is highly dependent on the quality of the feats they get, and as matters stand, there's a real lack of good high-level feats.
Hint 2: plot device spells are not limited to wizards.
Monks can be whirling death dealers.
That sort of monk is talked about more often than seen. More usually, monks are highly specialised support players. They very rarely kick butt and take names the way fighters, clerics and wizards do.
Rogues are dealing out piles of sneak attack damage.
And just as often hiding to avoid getting whacked in return, or having to deal with non-crittable things. Have I mentioned yet that more damage doesn't change the parameters of the game?
Rangers can pelt an enemy with a rain of deadly arrows.
Have I mentioned yet that more damage doesn't change the parameters of the game?
Etcetera, etcetera. Not to mention that most of those classes can use their abilities an endless number of times.
Irrelevant. Using up resources encompasses a greater range of things than just feats and sneak attacks.
If your DM lets you just fight one battle and then rest, then the problem is with your DM - not the spells.
At high levels, you'll very often be fighting one battle and then resting, because half the party is close to dead, or their special abilities (from items, if necessary) have run out, or both. Spells are just one dimension of a party's total resources. Further, answering "the rules are hard to use" with "a smart DM can make anything work" is stupid.
Your wizard should be cautious when casting all his uber spells in one battle. That's usually a mistake the wizard only makes once.
At high levels, mobility magic is common enough that PCs can often choose the time of combat as they please.
That's not true. If you've been Disjoined, you can still cast your own Disjoin. Not to mention that items get their owner's will saves - and 20th level mages generally have high will saves.
Disjunction can be cast on fighters just as easily as wizards.
Besides, as a DM I'd think very, very hard before I cast Disjoin against the party.
Of course, you could just ban the spell and save the trouble of having to think about it.
Roleplaying is not an exercise in self-improvement. If something is a pain to deal with, then it's perfectly reasonable to excise it and get on with the fun stuff.
You'd need to be sure that they could stay within the appropriate wealth bracket for their level, despite any losses.
Exactly.
Okay.
Round 1
Wizard goes first: wizard Shapechanges into a Pit Fiend.
Dragon goes next: dragon casts Greater Dispel Magic. Wizard becomes himself again.
Hint 3: look up the caster level of your typical dragon, vs an equivalent EL wizard.
Hint 4: not every encounter involves something that can cast greater dispel. Saying that every encounter should be like this is a tacit admission that the thing to be dispelled is too good to leave unchecked.
Why is this unbalanced? If your DM isn't effectively using the same abilites the PCs can, then again the problem is with your DM, not the rules.
No, it's a problem with the rock-paper-scissors aspect of D&D, which is not something that a DM should have to contend with when designing appropriate encounters. Certainly not to the extent that a lot of 9th level spells demand it.
There's also Anti-magic field, or baleful polymorph, or many other ways to deal with a shapechanged wizard.
Why should every encounter require an NPC wizard to deal with one pissy spell?
For every PC ability - even 9th level ones - there are effective methods of keeping the challenge in the game.
And it would be a much, much better game if these counters weren't so specific to individual classes, which mandates a contrived approach to designing encounters.
It's just harder at high levels.
So ban the high level stuff. You're Allowed.
To run a high level game, the DM must know the abilities of every class inside and out, and be very familar with every spell, and every monster's ability.
... or the DM could just ban the cheese. You're Allowed.
The DM of a high level game must really understand the nooks and crannies of the game.
Poppycock. The DM of a high level game is required to do exactly what would provide them and their group with the most fun. Excessive amounts of homework to find obscure broken things does not constitute "fun" for a lot of people.
He can't slide by like he could at 5th or even 15th level.
And?
Running a high level game isn't for the neophyte DM.
And?
The players only need to know only one small aspect (their chosen class) to be very effective.
And?
The DM needs to know everything the players know, and then some.
And is there something wrong with making that task easier?
