High-Tech Forces vs. High-Magic Forces

[mmadsen]

For the question to make sense, you'd have to give both sides equal resources; otherwise it's a no-brainer.

Yes, my first instinct is to parameterize the scenario and explore what it would take to make the fight fair -- or at least interesting. Obviously either side could win a decisive victory, depending on how we set the ground rules, but simply saying "it depends" isn't very insightful either.

I think small arms fire is in the magic's favour - protection from normal missiles is a gamechanger there. I don't know how that scales up to larger missiles, but a modern military is very heavily dependent upon "normal missiles".

In the first installment of The Veil War, the "goblins" clearly have something akin to protection from normal missiles working for them. Their "mojo" deflects even sniper rifle rounds -- but it doesn't seem up to the task of deflecting whole volleys of fire directed at one target.

The area where the modern side wins unquestionably is air superiority. Even with griffin riders or dragons, the magic side has nothing that can engage a modern fighter jet - either in terms of speed or in terms of engagement range (the fighter jet can attack from miles away). The modern side definitely dominates the air, and that's gonna make a big difference.

The second episode emphasizes that air superiority -- but only in the absence of dragons.

I'm trying to imagine how flying beasts might be superior to aircraft. They should have nowhere near the speed and power, but they should be quite agile, and I suppose they'd have little radar or infrared signature. Breathing fire might change that last part. I suppose helicopters might find themselves vulnerable to being grappled by dragons, but I can't imagine a jet facing much threat, and autocannons should rip apart anything without magic armor. Maybe a dragon would find it trivial to stay out of a fighter's line of fire?

 

[mmadsen]

A mass attack of real-world humans against machine guns doesn't work. But, that's because human beings are frail, and it typically takes a single bullet to take one of us of commission. The spray of bullets is actually pretty diffuse, and you only land one or two bullets in any particular target in the crowd. Much of the effect of machine guns on a charge has more to do with morale than with dishing out physical damage.

But, what if that horde isn't just like real-world humans? Just like we have to ask how magic works in the modern world, we have to ask how the critters themselves work. If that charge is of uruk-hai and ogres who can take several bullets before stopping, and are downright suicidal by real-world morale standards, the scene might be quite different.

While I largely agree with your first few points, I don't think Uruk-Hai or even Cave Trolls would have much chance of charging machine-guns, given how easily real-world cavalry horses are cut down by post-Napoleonic firearms.

There's a reason we didn't bring back the war elephant during the Great War.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I'm trying to imagine how flying beasts might be superior to aircraft. They should have nowhere near the speed and power, but they should be quite agile, and I suppose they'd have little radar or infrared signature.

That, plus maneuverability and no gears to get jammed.

Because of their nature, many modern armaments simply wouldn't lock on to living targets...which leaves guns/cannon, which is de-emphasized in most modern air force training except helicopter gunnery, air-to-ground units, and the entire Israeli AF.

 

[mmadsen]

Because of their nature, many modern armaments simply wouldn't lock on to living targets...which leaves guns/cannon, which is de-emphasized in most modern air force training except helicopter gunnery, air-to-ground units, and the entire Israeli AF.

Yeah, the highest of the high-tech weapons likely wouldn't work, but any kind of gunship should tear through magical beasts that came out into the open. I'm not sure how you'd ambush a helicopter or close-air-support plane.

The author of The Veil War, by the way, has a Twitter feed going. Any ideas you'd like to see in "print"?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Yeah, the highest of the high-tech weapons likely wouldn't work, but any kind of gunship should tear through magical beasts that came out into the open. I'm not sure how you'd ambush a helicopter or close-air-support plane.

What a gunship could or could not do to a magical creature would depend heavily on the nature of the beast in question. What are 30mm spent uranium rounds from an A-10's GAU-8/A Avenger Gatling-type cannon going to do to an enraged Air Elemental?

As for the strike back, we lost 4 A-10s in 1991's Gulf War, all to surface to air missiles. If you look at most magic systems, you'll find a rough equivalent.

 

[coyote6]

Give the magical forces common access to long-lasting versions of the GURPS spell Reverse Missiles, and things start to become painful for the tech forces (the spell does just what the name says, unerringly).

Give the magical forces access to something like GURPS Unlimited Mana, and you may rapidly approach MAD (as spellcasters overcast so massively that they begin to alter the world).

So, as everyone's said -- it depends on ground rules.

Standard D&D goblins don't stand a chance. It's a fairly boring experiment, though fun to game out if you're the guys with guns. Maybe try an army of elves -- fighter/magic-users with decades of training and experience, not Warrior 1s -- in goblin-like numbers.

Worse, make it the Abyss vs the real world, and things get much harder for the tech side. All of the fantasy forces' units are inherently magical -- there are no wands to swipe, or scrolls or books to learn from. Just enemies in the millions, most of which can unerringly teleport, many of which are metaphysically troublesome and frighteningly uncaring of traditional religious means of opposing them (after all, I'm pretty sure the Catholic church doesn't dump five pounds of silver dust in a jar to make one flask of holy water in the real world).

Side question: Say fantasy invaders get their butts kicked, and the real world wants to retaliate by sending forces through the gates to the other side. Once there, they learn that their tech (guns, explosives, electronics, etc.) don't work there. How quickly could a modern military gear up a medievally armed force? Imagine a fantasy armor equipped with the best swords and mail a modern industrial society could create.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Well, a lot of military forces teach HTH, basic knife fighting and the like, so they wouldn't be completely unskilled.

As for modern materials...some could prove handy. Kevlar, DragonScale, lexan and other polycarbonates. Heat resistant ceramics. I don't know how much sense it would make for us to make titanium alloy blades, though.

 

[mmadsen]

What a gunship could or could not do to a magical creature would depend heavily on the nature of the beast in question. What are 30mm spent uranium rounds from an A-10's GAU-8/A Avenger Gatling-type cannon going to do to an enraged Air Elemental?

Well, yes, of course what a modern weapon does to its target depends on the nature of the target -- but I used the phrase "magical beast" to imply beast-like creatures, rather than elementals, ghosts, slimes, etc.

Anything that would casually tear up an elephant should do the same to a dinosaur, a "realistic" dragon, a hill giant, etc.

As for the strike back, we lost 4 A-10s in 1991's Gulf War, all to surface to air missiles. If you look at most magic systems, you'll find a rough equivalent.

It should come as no surprise that low- and slow-flying airplanes were taken out by surface-to-air missiles; that's what those missiles are for.

Is there anything a wyvern, griffon, or giant eagle could do to a modern military aircraft though?

Give the magical forces common access to long-lasting versions of the GURPS spell Reverse Missiles, and things start to become painful for the tech forces (the spell does just what the name says, unerringly).

I suppose the good news when faced with reverse missiles is that most rounds miss in the first place...

High-explosive artillery should work, right? Just pray that no round actually lands right on target.

Standard D&D goblins don't stand a chance. It's a fairly boring experiment, though fun to game out if you're the guys with guns. Maybe try an army of elves -- fighter/magic-users with decades of training and experience, not Warrior 1s -- in goblin-like numbers.

The Veil War "goblins" seem much more like an army of (ugly) elves, all armed and armored with magical gear.

Worse, make it the Abyss vs the real world, and things get much harder for the tech side.

That would be my go-to scenario. An army of ravenous demons, largely immune to mundane weapons, comes through the gate and nothing seems to stop them.

Well, a lot of military forces teach HTH, basic knife fighting and the like, so they wouldn't be completely unskilled.

Modern military forces train in hand-to-hand combat a few dozen hours. After a few hundred hours, they would become competent, like hobbyist martial artists who've been at it a year or two. After a few thousand hours, they would reach the level of a young warrior who grew up in a culture that treated fighting the way we treat academics.

 

[El Mahdi]

I don't know how much sense it would make for us to make titanium alloy blades, though.

Yeah, I agree...it wouldn't make much sense at all. Titanium anything is one of those silly tropes that seems to have life due to the idea that anything new or technological must be better.

Titanium is only used in applications where something requires strength greater than aluminum, but requiring the end product to be as light as possible, which rules out steel.

Titanium is not stronger than steel, it just has a better tensile strength to density ratio. The tensile strength of steels is still 3 to 5 times higher than titanium alloys.

It's like the power to weight ratio of a vehicle. A motorcycle may have a much better power to weight ratio than a truck, but you're still not going to be able to tow anything with the motorcycle. Hands down, the truck is going to have more power.

That's why I always laugh when I watch the Blade movies. Blades titanium sword is about as useful as a stainless steel replica sword against a real, weapons grade steel sword. A decent parry or strike from the steel sword is going to snap Blades sword into an useless piece of junk.

I know, a bit off topic but I couldn't help myself.


But yeah, some of our modern materials could come in quite handily. Kevlar and other polymers, ceramics, and modern industrial techniques could be significant factors in a tech-forces chances of invading the magic-forces realms. Our industrial capabilities would definitely allow us to make armor and weapons much faster than the other side, though we wouldn't necessarily make them of any better quality. Even with our modern understanding of what makes steel useful in armor and weapons, I doubt we could actually improve upon the best made swords and armors made with medieval techniques. But cranking out a couple hundred to thousands of Mail shirts a day could be very advantageous.

Though for fighting against medieval weapons, I don't think Kevlar or ceramics would help in making better armor. Against bullets they're very good. Against slashing and piercing weapons, kevlar is just about useless. And chopping/bludgeoning weapons (maces, axes, etc.) would likely shatter ceramics and hard polymers.

But a very interesting technological material might be very useful against medieval weapons: sheer-thickening fluid used in "liquid" body-armors. That could make very light and flexible armors that are as protective as full plate!

 

[El Mahdi]

Is there anything a wyvern, griffon, or giant eagle could do to a modern military aircraft though?

They could make for one hell of a bird_strike!